[00:00:02] What You Want, When You Want It, Where You Want It. This is The MESH. Hey everybody, I'm Amy Chang, a nurse, a mom and a health coach. And this is Healthy AF, where honesty and humor and heart meet real talk about feeling good again, inside and out.
[00:00:22] We're cutting through the noise, dropping the guilt and reminding you, getting healthy isn't about perfection. It's about choosing yourself. One loving decision at a time. Let's get into it. Hey everybody, and welcome to another episode of Healthy AF. My name is Amy Chang and I'm a health coach here with Health and Wellness Coaching. I'm delighted to be continuing my conversation with Susie about midlife divorce.
[00:00:50] The way we started the first episode, and if you'd like to go back and listen to that, you can, but you really don't have to. Susie got divorced at 53. I got divorced at 44. They were similar, but not similar. And Susie's been a great contribution to anybody who's going through a midlife divorce. And we just want to share sort of more about her program in this episode.
[00:01:19] You can hear a little bit more about Susie and her story in the prior episode. So welcome in. Susie. Yeah. I'm so glad to be here. And I've, it's, it's just a privilege to be able to share what I've learned just to make things easier for someone else and not have to struggle through some of the mistakes I made. Yeah, gosh, I know.
[00:01:44] Well, where we left off in the last episode was when your marriage ends, likely you're going to have, likely you're going to have some feels. You may go into survival mode. You may go into overwhelm. Things that are normal, like showering, getting up, listening to music, processing the news, cooking, eating it, may become overwhelming and really challenging.
[00:02:12] And so Susie, when she was going through her own survival, created something that now lives on to serve other people. Susie, will you tell us, we talked a little bit about when you called the six or eight people, other women who were going through what you were going through. And said, hey, I'm, I'm not doing well. Y'all want to come over.
[00:02:41] And I said, Susie, you prepared for that, that first meeting. Will you tell me, start, start when you, you figured you'd call these ladies over and just do something.
[00:02:58] Well, as you mentioned that you, you really do go into survival mode and you realize in your head that you cannot continue the way you are, that you've got to make some changes, but you just don't have the energy or the, or the, you just are so broken. You don't know how to, how to move forward yourself, much less help anyone else.
[00:03:23] So I just, I, I did just try to keep in my head, well, I'm going to use what I learned to help make this easier for someone else. Cause there's no need for all of us to have to struggle through this part after we've learned what we know now about getting better and dealing with infidelity and just all, all the mess that it makes in your life.
[00:03:53] Were all the women who were going through this at the same time dealing with infidelity as well? I think every single one of them in that particular group were. It was some kind of emotional or physical. Right. Yeah. And a lot of times the guys say, it's just, you know, try to act like it's just emotional or just physical or whatever, you know, seeming to think that it makes a difference. Right. Right.
[00:04:22] But, um, they were all just in those early stages. And there was one woman who, uh, everyone after that first night, but she could never get up the nerve to, uh, to make herself that vulnerable and go meet with other people and say, I'm really not doing well. And she tried to do it by herself.
[00:04:47] And it took her way, way longer to, in fact, I saw her years and years later, and there was still some hurt there, you know, that. And so I think just having the courage to at least be around other women and admit what you're thinking, because some of my thoughts were just way out there, you know. Yeah.
[00:05:10] Uh, and so I think having the courage to say, okay, I'm, I'm, I need some help and I need some, uh, fellow travelers along this road because I'm not doing well on my own. Did you feel humiliated at all? Oh my gosh. Yeah, me too. For some reason you feel like, well, and my husband, that's another thing. I don't like the word ex-husband.
[00:05:39] So I use the word my husband. Husband. He was my husband, but he's not anymore. So my husband, he was a wonderful, gregarious, fun, wanted to do everything kind of guy. He was just, you know, everyone loved him. So one time someone said, well, you know, if anything ever happens to you too, there are a bunch of nurses that are interested.
[00:06:04] I mean, you know, just, so he was just very, and I'm sure in my head, I was thinking, well, he's so much fun and he's so good with people and all that. I'm sure they're thinking I, it must've been me, something wrong. Oh yeah. For him to, so I, I dealt with that and I worried a lot about that, that they would think I was somehow not enough.
[00:06:32] You know, just not enough to keep the marriage going. But, you know, with time I started learning that not everyone thought it was so cool and not everyone felt like it was my fault like I did. You know? Yeah. That, that was a, that was a hard, um, I call it a lie. That was a hard lie that popped in my head.
[00:06:57] And actually I was thinking about it in the shower today, getting ready for this. Um, I've been really excited actually about doing this podcast and also super tentative because this for me goes back almost 10 years. And, um, I can very easily get drawn right back to who I was the day that that all happened.
[00:07:23] And, and those first little days and I've grown so much. Like there are sometimes I'm like, I don't even recognize that girl. And sometimes I'm like, Oh, I remember her. You know, she was really, um, hurting. And I mean, she had the tools that she has. I have a lot more tools now, but she had the tools that she had. And, and that idea, um, yeah, that like there was something wrong with me.
[00:07:53] It's a, it's an interesting, um, it's an interesting place to be. And, uh, at there at first I had nothing to do with that thought. Like, I mean, I, I didn't, let me, let me verbalize that better. I didn't know what to do with that thought. I didn't know if it was true or not. Like I had thoughts that would pop in my head, like, well, why is he all of a sudden, you know, like outside more when for years I've said, let's go outside more.
[00:08:21] And he hasn't wanted to do that. Now he's, he's doing that. So there were some shifts in his behavior where he never did that with me, but now he's doing it, you know, now in this next chapter without me. And then my little brain thought lies were, um, well, what's wrong with me that he could never do that with me.
[00:08:43] And that was such a hard thought to have all by myself in isolation without anybody else to say, like, are you also having these salts? And without somebody ahead of me to say like, yeah, girl, you have those salts, but they're lying to you. Yeah. So I, I often think about what you did and I'm like, wow, I wish I, that I would have benefited from, from having a Susie around.
[00:09:11] So I'm sorry. I interrupted you. No, that's okay. I mean, it's just, um, it's just such a foreign place to be. And, uh, we were a great couple.
[00:09:24] We had lots of couple friends, you know, we, uh, but I may have, I may have, I don't know, sent some signals because he, he had had us a small short affair, uh, that, that ended, you know, and it was someone out of town and it wasn't a big deal. And I just said, I'm never going to talk about this.
[00:09:54] I'm never going to, and here I am talking about it. But, um, you know, we took care of that. We went, went along for, that was after we had been married 10 years. And, uh, so we just worked that out. I worked it out and, uh, accepted it and we moved forward. So, and we had great times together and we did good things together until all this happened.
[00:10:22] And, and I, I'm just thinking really, you know, at this time in my life when we're not so busy with, with kids and, you know, other things that we will have more time for ourselves and things like that. Yeah. I thought the same thing. I thought, God, we're so close. Like we literally have two more years before the last kid goes to boarding school. And I was like, oh, we can, you know, we can have Fridays off. We can, you know, I was like, we can really reconnect. Yeah.
[00:10:50] So, um, that, that was hard too. So, but anyway, it's, um, just, just being able to rationally think, um, and you have to argue with yourself that it's, you've done everything you could. You know, you, you did what you thought was good for your marriage. You tried to make things good in your life and your kids' lives and your husband's life.
[00:11:17] And, and it just did not, it just did not work. And so, um, you have to figure out how, what's going to come next for you. And like we talked in that first time we visited together, it's, uh, you do have to say, you make the choice. I'm not going to let this destroy me and I'm going to do the best I can and move forward.
[00:11:39] And be what I can be to my kids, even though, uh, everyone makes mistakes on that front when you're going through this. And you might've done things differently if you had been in a different frame of mind or something. But you do have to finally say, I am just not going to let this destroy my life. Yep. And you, and you did that and you called some women and you, you prepared for that first meeting. What, what all did you do to prepare for that meeting?
[00:12:09] Cause you had, I think the story goes, you had handouts. I had what? You had handouts. Yeah. Yeah. Well, I decided that we were going to choose our radical names. We were going to make a decision that we weren't going to let this destroy this or destroy us. And we were going to find a way to move forward. And so I did have, I, like I said, I had written so many things and looked at so many ways to,
[00:12:39] that I could have done things better and going to do things better in the future. And then I was going to just stop all this terrible sadness and find my way back to joy and fun. And so that's why I kind of made it light by picking our radical names. Yeah. At least starting out and saying, okay, I'm Frisky Ridgewood.
[00:13:06] And just say, if, if people didn't listen to the last one, Frisky was the name of your first pet. And Ridgewood was, is the name of the street you grew up in when you were in elementary school. Right. And radical has a special meaning too. Yeah. It's rising above divorce and confidence and love. That's honestly what I wanted to do. And that is a huge challenge when you've, when your life has been just,
[00:13:33] your life as you knew it has just been destroyed really. Yeah. Yeah. And you've got to figure out how to go forward. Yeah. So, so, but then after that very first night, it was such a wonderful thing to be around other women, other good women who were sad about the end of their marriage, who were devastated that they were in this spot, but that they had decided to, that they weren't going to let it destroy them.
[00:14:02] And so we just started with all those basic things, you know, the survival six and just getting together and comparing solutions, possible solutions, or what had worked for us, or what didn't work for us or things they learned from their counselor. Or it was just the fact that these, this group, you know, we had nine people or so this group, we shared things with each other that we did not share outside of this, the gathering, you know,
[00:14:32] we made that choice at the beginning. We, it was, it was just us. And, and that we weren't going to be talking about each other, what was going on in anyone else's marriage, that we were a group who together were strengthening each other to move forward. And so I think that's been one of the keys to success is having a group that you can identify with that, you know,
[00:14:59] you could call them at three in the morning crying and they wouldn't hang up and say, call me tomorrow. So just having that group is so powerful. And even when, even today in my groups, they stay together forever. I mean, get together way after everything's the dust is settled on their divorces and they are well on their way, but they still get together and do things.
[00:15:29] And so it's been, it's just, and I worried, I worried a bit that, you know, like there are groups going on all around the country. I don't know how many are doing it still, but I do know that online, you know, having a group online that meets once a week and talks over things and gets new materials to, to help them move forward for that, for that week.
[00:15:58] And that's why we turned it into a 10 week program and, you know, churches sometimes sponsor it. How long did it take you? Okay. For one, okay. I've got to, I've got to pin myself. I have to pace myself because I have so many questions. Like they're all in there. They're spinning around and I'm like, Ooh, don't forget to say that. And then, Oh, you got to hold onto that. And I can't hold onto so many things at one time. So, um, for one thing, I just wanted to note like, yeah,
[00:16:26] my experience in coaching has been too, that I can do, um, you know, I can, I can create spaces for individuals. I can invite them to discover things about their lives. They can do all the work they want to do, but there's something magical in a group that happens that just because you have that, that group, that little container where you're totally safe and you can, I've had people in group, well, people in coaching and period, you know, with the, like, I've never said that out loud, you know,
[00:16:57] and, and the reaction on their faces. So when they get to say it individually to me, they're, they're relieved because now they've said it. Right. But really they're saying it more to themselves and that's the relief when they say it in group and then they see their counterparts going, yeah, girl, me too. Or sometimes if it's a really heavy thought, I'll just say, okay, thank you for telling us that I want to see like a show of hands. If anyone in here can relate.
[00:17:30] And that, and the, the space that that gives to the woman who's just shared, like, I thought that this was just me. Yeah. Right. Exactly. You know, it's, it is a magical thing. So like what you're saying lines up with my experience too, about what happens in group. Yeah. Go ahead. Yeah. Well, in, in our classes, that very first night, um, they all have to sign a sheet that says,
[00:17:59] I'm not going to be sharing this with anyone outside of this group. And they have to sign it. And if we find out that they have their let go out of the class, because it's just too private. It's just too precious to throw your heart out there and, uh, and have someone speak that, that they shouldn't be. So everyone signs it and I have a copy of it. And I've only once had asked someone leave, but, uh,
[00:18:29] it's just too important to maintain that. But now it's, it's critical. Yeah. We do the same thing on the first, on the first night of group, even, even in my book clubs. Yeah. Right. And that's, that's pretty like low stakes. You're just in there for four weeks. We're just, just talking about something you want to achieve in your life. Right. Um, but that, that idea of what happens here stays here. Cause this has to be a safe spot. Yeah. And then, so violated already, you know, and so,
[00:18:59] so much of your life is just out there in the public. You know, we've been left, they have this fancy new girlfriend or whatever. And, and you're feeling, you're feeling like people are talking about you. And sometimes anyway, and it's just such a relief to be in a group where you pledge to each other that you are not going to violate this trust and that they can depend on you. At some point I wanted to just have a,
[00:19:26] have a shirt that said, yes, he left. Yes, it was bad. I'm okay. And just wear it around town because like it, it varied from people who were nosy and curious and wanted the scoop. Not a lot of those, but then also people who, um, loved both of us dearly and like hadn't seen us. We were just in a year and a half. Yeah.
[00:19:56] And so still a year and a half later, the whole like, wait, what you're not, and then the, and then they're surprised and you're trying to help them with their emotional attachment to your marriage that was ended. You know, it's right. I know it's been, it was, it was quite a ride. And to have, so I always think, and I've never thought this thought until we were having this conversation that having a group, especially if you have children in your lives, um,
[00:20:25] gives you a place to go and just let it out in an area that doesn't poison your kids. Cause it's hard. Um, um, like I said in the previous podcast, my door was shut so much. My son was wigged out. He's like, mom, what are you doing in there? What are you doing? Well, half the time I was just on the phone to a friend saying like, I feel crazy and this is awful. And I think this, and I think that, but I couldn't let them hear that. Yeah. And, um, well,
[00:20:54] I remember one time I, I just lost it. And I was in the closet crying, you know, and my, one of my children came up to me and just put his arm around me. And I was embarrassed that he saw me like that, but you know, this is life. And I, I think it was, I'm sure he learned something. It was a hard thing to see, but, um, and I didn't make a, you know, I didn't make it.
[00:21:25] I didn't do that all the time, but that day I was just, I was just so sad. And, um, I think it's, it's okay for them to see us be sad, but it is so important for them to see us, uh, move forward. Yeah. And that group, that group dynamic of people who are not going to be giving you advice or, you know, making me feel bad about it or whether they're just embracing what you're.
[00:21:53] Or bashing your ex-husband. Yeah. Because like there were times that I really wanted, I wanted someone to bash my ex-husband because that's what I wanted to do. But, you know, but those were actually a really kind of few times. Um, because it just didn't serve me. It didn't move me for, I was very clear on that from the very beginning. Um, I didn't need anybody else's anger help in mine. I had enough of mine, but sometimes people would want to come up and like,
[00:22:23] talk crap about my ex-husband. And I'm like, dude, I, you know, I'm trying to move my life forward without that. So, and, and I also, you know, remember my own therapist saying, um, you know, Amy, it might be helpful if you set aside some time to do your grieving or do your venting or whatever so that you can visit it and you can deal with it and process it,
[00:22:50] but it doesn't have to just consume your entire life. Right. And having this group kind of process feels like y'all created that a time and a space where you could like get it out, deal with it. And then you could go like, get the groceries and take care of the kids and get a journalism degree and, you know, do stuff like, right. Well, and, um, I don't know too. We have radical shirts if, if you wanted them,
[00:23:19] but you can change that to mean anything rising above discouragement or rising above, you know, they didn't have to specify that means rising above divorce, but, um, it also was edgy enough. It, you could be a radical woman in a different way. And my, my email is still radical Susie at gmail.com. And it's, I mean, it's a conversation piece,
[00:23:45] but I did a lot of personal writing when I was going through this poetry and stuff like that, that let me have a private space to let all that stuff out and just be honest about it. But having that group of flesh and blood women who I could call in the morning, you know, two in the morning or whatever, just was a different kind of, of, uh, gift. So I do think we have to,
[00:24:14] if we feel like going in the closet and crying, I think, you know, we can do that, but we can't stay there and we can't make our kids feel badly or worse. Just, um, letting them know that life is hard sometimes and we're dealing with it the best we can. And I have had kids call me and order this program for, for their mom, their parent. Yeah. So it's hard watching your kid, watching your mama. I know. So, I mean, I think dads too,
[00:24:44] it's hard to watch your dads go through that, but, uh, it's just hard. It was hard on my kids in, in ways that I could control if I'd have had more tools in ways that I couldn't control. Right. You know, it was just, it was just all around a tough time, but they do kids are kids need to see, and especially I, like I said, I, I, I'm a spiritual woman. I'm, you know, I've not arrived, but I try to do the best I can. And I,
[00:25:13] some actions I wanted to take, or in some cases I did take, did not support that part of me that was, you know, I was just, I was just so pissed off and I was so angry and, uh, sad and everything else that they saw me, do some not, no, they saw me at my worst for sure. I've got to just, Grady was the only one still really at home. You know, he saw me do some,
[00:25:42] and I'll just tell this one short story. Yeah. We were on our way to church. We were on our way to church. And, you know, I was driving up that point and he was in the seat beside me and we were going past the apartments where my husband was living. And I see his girlfriend biking out of the parking lot. So I'm in my car driving, going to work. And I, she comes out to the street and I get real close and said,
[00:26:12] I'm so glad you've taken up biking. I was like, Because our family biked across Kansas every year. And Tom was a thing. Oh gosh. That was a thing. Yeah. So it's hard to drive slow enough to, you know, so I went, I've got something else I want to say. So I did, I did a U-turn and came back by her and said, and that's a really dorky bicycling outfit. And Grady, bless his heart, said,
[00:26:42] Mom, mom, let's go. Let's go. I still think about that. I think what world he was thinking. Yeah. She's going to run her over if I don't get her to church. Yes. We become irritable and unreasonable without knowing it. It just is, is right there. Yeah. He's stuck. You know, I've done, I've done three or four things. I'll, I'll spread out the story. So just,
[00:27:11] you won't think I'm just totally crazy. No, no, it's, it's funny. All those thought processes and all the emotion and all those things that just, it seems like it's just not all firing on all cylinders. And, and the kids, the kids watch it. Like the kids see everything. You know, I actually did a continuing education bit about taking, taking care of people who are divorced and called the guy afterward who was
[00:27:41] presenting it. He presented this for like, I don't know, 15, 20 years. And he said, yeah, he said, every time I present this, I have one or two of you who will call and, and want to have a conversation. And, and I was that one or two. And, um, it was all about my kids. And he said something that really set me free. He said, Amy, you're trying to protect them from seeing what has happened. They see it and it's already happening.
[00:28:11] Yeah. You can't protect them from something that is happening right now. And they see it. So it, um, took a little bit of the pressure off of like, Hey, I'm not that powerful. My kids are not stupid. They are right here in the middle of this mess. And, um, I didn't get until many years later that the best way I can help them as being by the, being the best, sturdiest me. Um, I got there eventually, but.
[00:28:41] Okay. So, and it's okay for them to see you lose it, but you just can't stay in that place. You can apologize and say that didn't do any good at all for anybody. I'm sorry about that. But, uh, but we can't beat ourselves up either about normal, normal emotions. Uh, but we, we do have to be so careful about our kids. I'm just proud of all my kids. So we're at time, but I want to,
[00:29:10] um, I want to prep us for going into the next podcast. Okay. Because so far we've done, uh, what it's like when your marriage ends and you feel like a rat in a cage and you're not maybe making the best choices. We've talked about what you created with your friends and the survival six, uh, next episode. I really want to focus in on how that went from a group.
[00:29:40] And we've hinted at this, but how that went from a group of eight or nine of you to like, no, there's a website. It's got hundreds of articles on there. Um, there's a 10 week program that's live and in person. There's all these things. I want to really, um, share with everybody what those materials are like, where they can find them, how people might think that they're helpful. Okay. Can we do that next time? Yes. That'd be great.
[00:30:10] That'd be great. Okay. Do you want to say anything to wrap up this episode? Uh, last time we ended on a smile. Yeah. The 16, the 16, 15 or 16 second. She was very specific though. I think she said 16 second smile, but, uh, uh, yeah, I'm just going to tell people that, um, there's a radical woman inside of you. And so that can cover lots of territory. But for right now,
[00:30:40] that means getting yourself rising above this divorce and, um, and making your life something great. So. Okay. We'll leave it right there. We'll see y'all next time on healthy AF. Okay. Bye. Yeah. Thanks for hanging out with me today. on healthy AF.
[00:31:04] I hope something you heard helps you take one small kind step toward your healthiest self. If you love this episode, hit subscribe. So you never miss a conversation. And if you want more support, head over to my healthy life.coach to connect with me. Remember, you don't have to do it perfectly. You just have to start choosing you. See you next time.
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