The Complexities of Experiencing Homelessness with Chris Johnson and Casey McCall

[00:00:02] What you want, when you want it, where you want it.

[00:00:06] This is the MESH.

[00:00:09] Welcome to the Safe Harbor Shining The Light podcast, where we will shine the light on community

[00:00:14] issues such as substance use disorder, poverty, homelessness and the stigma that prevents

[00:00:21] many from getting the help that they need.

[00:00:24] Thank you for joining us and I hope you enjoy this episode.

[00:00:33] Welcome to Safe Harbor Shining The Light podcast.

[00:00:38] This podcast aims to shed light and shine light on social issues that often plague our communities.

[00:00:46] Many of you that have tuned in to prior episodes have heard us talking about stigma that relates

[00:00:54] to substance use, mental health, poverty and homelessness.

[00:00:58] I'm excited to expand on those topics today as the month of May is Mental Health Awareness

[00:01:05] Month.

[00:01:06] I'm so excited to have two wonderful guests with us today.

[00:01:12] Chris Johnson is the former principal and founder of the Leadership Development Group

[00:01:18] Young People of Integrity.

[00:01:19] So welcome, sir.

[00:01:21] And then Casey McCall is with us.

[00:01:23] He is the community navigator for Hickory Police Department.

[00:01:28] And so both of you gentlemen, you are heroes of mine and very good colleagues and friends

[00:01:35] and I appreciate the work that both of you have done in our community in reference to

[00:01:40] advocacy and providing services and supports for so many people that struggle with substance

[00:01:46] use, mental health and homelessness.

[00:01:49] And so I would love for both of you to just share a little bit about how you came

[00:01:55] to work in the field of substance use, mental health, homelessness and also why you're

[00:02:00] passionate about being an advocate for these issues.

[00:02:04] So Chris, I'm going to let you start us off, sir.

[00:02:07] All right.

[00:02:08] So in April 2003 I came to Hickory as a homeless person and it was homeless due to a drug

[00:02:18] addiction and I was on the streets for about three years.

[00:02:22] And I came to Hickory to attend Exodus homes.

[00:02:27] And while attending there, I got some support and the things that I needed to help me get

[00:02:34] back on track.

[00:02:36] And while I was there, I noticed that kids walking up and down the street and it kind

[00:02:42] of inspired me to start a youth program called Young Men of Integrity at the time.

[00:02:47] And so that's how I kind of got started here.

[00:02:50] And then one thing led to another, I started working for Cognitive Connection and the rest

[00:02:54] is history.

[00:02:55] All right.

[00:02:56] So talk to us a little about, you've had like a variety of roles within.

[00:03:01] So what did you start out doing?

[00:03:04] Like I know with as a graduate of the wonderful program Exodus Homes here in Hickory that

[00:03:10] you were hired by the Cognitive Connection which is a local outpatient substance use

[00:03:14] treatment provider.

[00:03:15] They do excellent work.

[00:03:18] And so what did you start doing for the Cognitive Connection?

[00:03:20] Well, I was like an outreach program coordinator and I was stationed at the Salvation Army.

[00:03:28] So I had a lot of contact with the homeless population at the time.

[00:03:33] So I got to see them come in with no resources at all.

[00:03:38] And it was my job to try to get them some resources and a foundation built for them

[00:03:43] so that they could sustain themselves and be successful in everyday life.

[00:03:49] And a lot of those things were basically getting an ID, birth certificate, finding a job, finding

[00:03:59] a residency and also providing mental health behavioral services for these folk so they

[00:04:08] could sustain a successful way of life.

[00:04:14] And that's where you and I met actually.

[00:04:15] It was about 17 years ago.

[00:04:18] I can't believe that.

[00:04:19] That's a long time.

[00:04:20] But Chris, I was employed also by the Cognitive Connection.

[00:04:25] That's where I got started.

[00:04:27] And I met Chris and his office was housed at the time at the Salvation Army.

[00:04:32] And so I recall Chris, what's great about you, Chris, I think is that you're just

[00:04:38] a wonderful facilitator and you just develop rapport.

[00:04:42] You have an ability because of the empathy.

[00:04:45] And you've really been in a lot, you can identify with so much struggle of a lot of individuals

[00:04:51] that are at the Salvation Army that you were just the perfect fit to be able to facilitate

[00:04:57] those groups with them.

[00:04:58] And so that's where I met you and just realized that, wow, well, you're a big

[00:05:03] powerhouse.

[00:05:04] I'm going to hang out with this guy.

[00:05:05] And so we ended up being partners in crime a lot of different ways, just working with people

[00:05:11] in the community and like you said, connecting them to services.

[00:05:15] And it certainly opened my eyes to just the barriers that exist.

[00:05:23] And we'll talk about that a little later.

[00:05:25] But so turning to Casey, I met Casey for the first time at the Salvation Army.

[00:05:32] So I'll let you talk a little bit about your professional history and how you came to be

[00:05:38] in this field.

[00:05:39] Sure.

[00:05:40] So I guess my story starts in about 2008.

[00:05:44] Unfortunately, I was the victim of the recession of 2008.

[00:05:51] And I was in a somewhat successful sales job for a Fortune 500 company that was indirectly

[00:05:59] related to the housing market.

[00:06:01] So in 2008, I was laid off.

[00:06:07] In a matter of months lost everything.

[00:06:11] I can still remember not having any power in my condominium and sitting in blankets just

[00:06:18] waiting for the foreclosure to be over with through the grace of God and loving parents

[00:06:27] was able to avoid the streets but spent better part of two years in and out of jobs as companies

[00:06:34] went under and things like that.

[00:06:37] And then bumped into someone that worked for the Salvation Army that said that he's got

[00:06:42] a job that he's having trouble filling.

[00:06:46] It's a job that you may not want, but combine see me on Monday and I'll be honest with

[00:06:52] you.

[00:06:53] This position is a fill in until something better in my background comes available.

[00:07:02] And then you look up and it's been 10 years and you're still working at the Salvation

[00:07:06] Army.

[00:07:07] I was hired as the Shelter Director for the Salvation Army.

[00:07:10] Salvation Army has an 80 bed shelter here in Hickory and ran that program for almost

[00:07:15] 10 years.

[00:07:18] And then I was approached by the Chief at the time for the Hickory Police Department,

[00:07:24] Chief Thurman Wissnet and Major Reed Baer in a conversation where we discussed things

[00:07:32] like their involvement with homelessness.

[00:07:37] It had become a significant percentage of their calls for service and looking for resources,

[00:07:44] things and then the position that I have now came from those conversations.

[00:07:50] Wow.

[00:07:51] Wow.

[00:07:52] Well, those are both such interesting journeys and I just know personally because my paths

[00:07:58] have crossed both of you many times on your journey, your professional journey, just

[00:08:04] the changes, the positive changes in the impact that both of you have made in the

[00:08:08] community.

[00:08:10] You know, it's just been fun to see both of y'all evolve into these different positions

[00:08:16] and see you thrive in them.

[00:08:18] So, but in your opinion, just based on your personal experiences in working with individuals

[00:08:25] experiencing homelessness, what are some common misconceptions with those experiencing

[00:08:33] homelessness and those that maybe have some overlap with untreated mental health?

[00:08:40] Well, I can honestly say that a lot of people think that homeless people are violent.

[00:08:46] You know, that they're criminals and it's almost really exactly the opposite.

[00:08:52] They're usually the ones who are the recipient of violent behavior and being mistreated

[00:08:58] and things like that.

[00:09:00] Most of homeless people that I was associated with were intelligent.

[00:09:03] They were nurses, they were, you know, people who had very decent jobs and due to certain

[00:09:09] catastrophic life experiences, you know, it wound them up on the street.

[00:09:14] So, and the thing was I realized was mental health was a barrier that kind of kept them,

[00:09:22] you know, in that position and a lot of them couldn't pull themselves out of the

[00:09:27] rut unless they had the substantial amount of quality help.

[00:09:31] Right, right.

[00:09:34] Yeah, I would agree with Chris.

[00:09:37] It's what I will say is we have a tendency to pull all of our homeless individuals together

[00:09:44] in one demographic and that's frankly not fair.

[00:09:48] They're individuals just like you and I are with varying issues, you know,

[00:09:56] struggling with many different things.

[00:09:58] You cannot approach the same homeless person with what their traumas are versus another

[00:10:04] homeless person.

[00:10:05] It's always going to be different.

[00:10:06] It's always, it's more in the gray area than is black and white when you're working

[00:10:10] with those in the homeless community.

[00:10:14] And again, the mental health aspect is what I call a barrier.

[00:10:20] I even often refer to it as self-neglect.

[00:10:23] You know, when you're trying to provide treatment for someone and they, because of their mental

[00:10:28] health, choose or opt out of those treatments, it becomes frustrating.

[00:10:32] You know, because you, we can see how, I won't say easy, but how doable that treatment

[00:10:41] is but they can't get over some of their mental barriers and things to take that

[00:10:46] first step.

[00:10:47] Sometimes people, I think that we don't have the words to articulate what's going

[00:10:50] on inside because we're out of control, right?

[00:10:54] And so it takes, it takes time.

[00:10:58] And so that's what I really appreciate about, you know, both of the positions that

[00:11:02] you guys have had.

[00:11:04] You're able to build rapport with people and really kind of hold their hand

[00:11:10] throughout the process and you've been able to see some successes.

[00:11:15] But in order to experience the successes with people, you've got to be willing

[00:11:19] to go on the ride with them, right?

[00:11:21] The up-down and all around.

[00:11:23] And so Casey, are there any stories that kind of pop in your head?

[00:11:27] Oh gosh, quite a few.

[00:11:30] Just I keep going back to when we're talking about barriers and things.

[00:11:36] You know, as you said, building that rapport in the position I have now

[00:11:41] with officers that are dealing with what we call frequent flyers that

[00:11:47] are, that they just as police officers can't get through to.

[00:11:51] But for whatever reason being able to build that rapport with that individual

[00:11:56] and I make progress.

[00:11:59] The struggles are for me, is we have amazing programs in this community.

[00:12:06] But their capacity doesn't meet the need.

[00:12:11] So you will start this relationship and may have to wait a month, 90 days

[00:12:19] for that doctor visit or that mental health assessment.

[00:12:25] And with them being in a transient lifestyle, you're trying to keep up

[00:12:29] with them. Trying to make contact with them.

[00:12:32] Their phones aren't charged. You know, they've lost their phone.

[00:12:35] It's been stolen by someone.

[00:12:38] So that becomes a bit of a struggle. But we often run into that and it's

[00:12:47] as we, we like to say we're building this ship on the water with my position.

[00:12:51] You know, this is something we're creating as we go.

[00:12:55] But you know, I meet them just about anywhere.

[00:12:59] You know, I will be in our booking and be talking to them like

[00:13:03] you and I are talking but from bars.

[00:13:05] Right.

[00:13:05] You know, an officer once told me it was kind of funny because it looked like a

[00:13:11] scene from Silence of the Lambs or something because I'm sitting in a chair

[00:13:14] talking through bars to someone as we kind of, as I like to say, peel back

[00:13:19] the layers of the onion.

[00:13:20] Sure.

[00:13:20] You know, because that's what we often get first is nobody leads with,

[00:13:26] you know, it's always got a positive spin and it's all I just can't find

[00:13:30] work. Well, no, that's not exactly it. Let's talk about,

[00:13:33] you know, what's your real struggle?

[00:13:36] I have really experienced our community evolve into formulating programs, special

[00:13:43] positions like yours, Casey.

[00:13:45] And you know, you've had every title. We don't have enough time to talk about

[00:13:49] all the titles that you've had but being a part of a community like ours,

[00:13:54] I think it's very special and we're very blessed to have providers like the

[00:13:59] Cognitive Connection, Law Enforcement, Safe Harbor, Kataba Valley Health Care,

[00:14:05] really find creative and innovative ways that we can have the time devoted to

[00:14:12] working with people. In your opinion, what are some of the more systematic

[00:14:18] barriers that exist? I know Casey, you've talked, you've touched on, well,

[00:14:24] we have, it's not that we don't have the services, we have the services

[00:14:27] but the demand is so high that oftentimes the amount of time that it takes to get in

[00:14:34] front of that physician or get in front of that service provider can be a little lengthy.

[00:14:39] Sure, yeah. What are some other barriers that y'all have experienced that people face?

[00:14:45] A couple of things. One is even though homeless person may get disability,

[00:14:53] the price of housing is so high that they really can't afford to stay in a place

[00:15:02] and afford their medications and all these other type things. So they would just prefer

[00:15:08] to be out free in an environment to live so that they're not faced with all these

[00:15:16] stressors and strainers of having to pay these high quality bills and things like that.

[00:15:22] And then another is the substance abuse. Getting over the substance abuse issue

[00:15:35] is a big thing because one, in order to get into salvation, you got a breathalyzer at night

[00:15:41] and a lot of the folk can't blow into that breathalyzer and the thing that would bother

[00:15:46] me but when the time come and the degree drops almost down to zero, these people are out in

[00:15:52] an environment. But they're there due to other issues but substance abuse and the quality of

[00:16:03] how high the prices are just for basic living is one of the barriers that I see that exists.

[00:16:11] Yeah, I think people, we use the word self-medicate. You know if that relief and that stabilization

[00:16:21] isn't a quick turnaround in reference to medication, people often resort to self-medicating

[00:16:28] with substances and that's very common. Oh absolutely and to dovetail off of what Chris

[00:16:33] was talking about with the shelter one thing I have to commend our community on is their ability

[00:16:39] to evolve and adapt. Right. I know when I was at the Salvation Army we saw the same thing so

[00:16:46] we implemented what they now call white flag nights that in the winter when it did get

[00:16:54] to those extreme temperatures anyone was welcomed through that door. You may not be the most

[00:17:00] comfortable, you may be on the floor or something but at least you're not out exposed to the

[00:17:05] elements. Right. So that's a great benefit. Absolutely right, our housing availability is

[00:17:13] not where it needs to be. I like to say that our community has seen some growing pains as we've

[00:17:18] you know evolved and frankly you just can't build housing fast enough. The other issue

[00:17:26] that we run into a lot is when we do find housing for our homeless in our community they don't

[00:17:33] have the basic living skills to maintain it. Unfortunately you know working for a law enforcement

[00:17:39] agency you sometimes have to be called to remove someone from their apartment and you kind of see

[00:17:48] unfortunately you see why they're being removed you know they've destroyed property they've

[00:17:53] for whatever reason become a hoarder and so part of you has to kind of play devil's advocate

[00:18:01] and look at it from the side of the landlord or the property manager. It gets complicated.

[00:18:10] Yeah and I think you know you bring up a good point Casey just like you know we've hit on in

[00:18:18] former episodes that we've had or prior episodes that we've had about like with substance use

[00:18:23] like ceasing the use of substances that is just a part of it housing someone that has

[00:18:29] experienced prominent homelessness that's great in theory but if nothing about the chaos of their life

[00:18:37] or that dysfunction that they've lived with because they haven't they haven't pulled back the layers

[00:18:43] and address any of that stuff they often they'll lose that housing as quickly as they get it

[00:18:49] and that's where I think sometimes the revolving door can come in the courtroom

[00:18:55] in the jails and shelters at safe harbor you know we see that and so the need for

[00:19:02] structured programming life skills long-term programming transitional programming

[00:19:10] I really feel like where those things come into play could really because your meeting a need but

[00:19:20] addressing the human is where is what is needed and and so I do appreciate programs and our community

[00:19:32] for like you said being willing to adapt and evolve with those needs but yeah you can't get programs

[00:19:39] up fast enough you can't get facilities up fast enough and so I feel like you know you got to

[00:19:43] do what you got to work fast and you got to do what you can with those resources

[00:19:50] what speaking of resources and programs what have y'all found like any like what's some effective

[00:19:59] programming and best practices that you have come across like what works

[00:20:04] well you know for me exit zones was this you know phenomenal resource for me yeah you know coming

[00:20:11] in all I have was a close on my back and you know while I was there you know other agencies that

[00:20:18] partnered with them you know also provided resources as well and then safe harbor you know was it was

[00:20:25] a resource for the ladies when they came into the shelter when I was working at an outreach

[00:20:32] when you begin to help someone feel good on the outside it helps them on the inside

[00:20:37] you know and so in exit zones the same way you got to you know rebuild a person you know especially

[00:20:45] from the inside out when you begin to to work on that so places like like those right there

[00:20:53] that could actually identify and have some empathy for for that individual

[00:20:59] Kepa by services for that that can help them absolutely I agree what I see is

[00:21:10] the more agencies that are affecting that person the more success you see in that person

[00:21:19] they're all doing an amazing job I can't just sit down and put my finger on one and say

[00:21:24] you know they knocked it out they all are you know they they're all partnering together

[00:21:29] they're all collaborating some of our best success stories are not my success stories

[00:21:36] they're our community success stories because it's not only me it's somebody with mental health

[00:21:41] and or substance use it's somebody that's looking for housing for them you know it's

[00:21:46] it's peer support it's act team it's you know I may have clients that have five different

[00:21:52] caseworkers you know DSS so sure as you know and those are the ones that I see the most success out

[00:22:00] of the more relationship partnerships I see in working with that individual is where

[00:22:07] and it gives them a whole bunch of accounting accountability partners right

[00:22:11] right not one not one caseworkers carrying the full load if you will absolutely thank

[00:22:18] you for elaborating on that because really community is the solution you know just building

[00:22:23] that support around that individual when you know when one person when they are connected with an

[00:22:30] act team which is specific to kataba valley health care specific to mental health you know

[00:22:37] that opens doors for mental health specific housing not many people know that we have that

[00:22:42] resource not many people may know that we have a continuum of care in an interagency council

[00:22:49] sure a kataba alliance for recovery you know there are there are coalitions and that are and

[00:22:55] there are groups in place where we are able to be allies for one another and work together to move

[00:23:01] folks along more successfully when and you have people coming to the table that don't normally

[00:23:08] are typically they're not typically involved with homelessness that are now coming to the table

[00:23:15] I'm a good example of that we have our law our hickory police department has someone that works

[00:23:20] with the homeless and 10 years ago that was not even a fault I mean they're they're here to

[00:23:26] protect and serve you know that's their line of work you've you've got people embedded in

[00:23:32] libraries that are are doing some form of outreach hospitals we have collaborations with with first

[00:23:42] responders that you know see a need for because you know their involvement it also gives you

[00:23:50] another aspect of you know for example with law enforcement you know a lot of non-profits are

[00:23:57] closed at night and yeah you know if it's a homeless issue it falls in the lap of a law

[00:24:04] enforcement officer that needs to know what his resources are that he can help this person with

[00:24:10] that you know a lot of us in the community that didn't know or wouldn't know that that's a thing

[00:24:16] right right well how would you how would you encourage community members

[00:24:25] to really foster a more empathetic we've used the word empathy a few times as we're talking

[00:24:32] just develop a more empathetic understanding of the complexities of this

[00:24:39] issues like mental health and homelessness well I think if they were more open to

[00:24:48] being involved with homeless people serving it in like when I worked for the council

[00:24:53] in our lessons we did a an event where we called one homeless night where the kids all stayed out

[00:25:00] in front of newton carneau over courthouse in cardboard boxes and people came by and they

[00:25:06] were watching us and you know and then we had like in the middle of the night we had some homeless

[00:25:11] people come in and pulled all the young folk together and talked to them about what it was

[00:25:15] like to be homeless and then took us on a tour into the color the cardboard city into the where

[00:25:24] homeless people live so you got to know that these are individuals just like anybody else

[00:25:30] and and they're and they want to really get help but you but they got to know that you're

[00:25:36] genuine first you know they can pick up on it real quick if if you have an ulterior motive

[00:25:41] trying to help them so they're smart they're they're sharp and i'm telling you living on the street

[00:25:49] you got to be on top of your game and a lot of people don't understand that because they got to

[00:25:54] be conscious of everything around them constantly all the time for their safety so um they have

[00:26:01] so much to offer our community if we just open our hearts and allow them an opportunity

[00:26:10] to just to be a part of something you know and spirituality is important as well to them

[00:26:16] because they don't have the materialistic things that blind them like average folk do

[00:26:21] they have nothing and so this relationship with god it's it's that's all they got

[00:26:25] and people don't understand that so if you allow them especially in a church

[00:26:30] churches have opportunity to real homeless people and quicker than anybody else

[00:26:34] and then provide services for them once you get them and you build a friendship with them

[00:26:38] you know so those are things that i see and there's so many ways um

[00:26:45] well of course like chris is saying education learning what it's like um

[00:26:51] what would they call that like a homeless scenario putting someone through the paces

[00:26:56] of what it's like to be homeless and and i've been through quite a few of those in my career

[00:27:00] and it's you know okay uh you wake up here and then you've got an appointment here at

[00:27:05] 10 o'clock and then you've got an appointment five miles away at two o'clock and do you have

[00:27:11] enough time to get there by foot and how do you get a bus pass etc etc etc and so that's really

[00:27:18] eye-opening to a lot of folks if they take the time i will also say you can help in so many

[00:27:23] different ways you know we're all different you know some of us are extroverted like the

[00:27:27] three of us and but there are some that just are not maybe there's another way that you can

[00:27:32] assist um whether it be direct or indirect um um as someone that's worked in non-profit is

[00:27:40] as you all both have you know uh we get lots of funding from from government but it's

[00:27:46] program specific and you're trying to figure out how to pay the people that have to do

[00:27:50] that program um and not everybody can run a thrift store um so um you know there are

[00:27:58] there are so many ways and but but experiencing it we often talk about you know be careful when

[00:28:03] you volunteer because you're going to get addicted you know and you're uh i see it all across where

[00:28:08] you see the same volunteers and then they've been volunteering for sometimes 30 years because

[00:28:14] they just experienced it once it soaked into them into their soul and they can't leave

[00:28:19] right um and you know it's it's educating yourself and and opening your door opening

[00:28:26] your church to someone like us to come and speak and say hey this is what's going on yes yes i

[00:28:32] thank you for bringing that up yes i think there is a a number of opportunities that government

[00:28:40] and faith community can collaborate together in a beautiful way really um if we um would just

[00:28:48] you know take the time to invite invite service providers into the church invite them

[00:28:55] into your civic groups you know be aware of the needs of your community you know i think of the

[00:29:00] united way the united way not many people know about 211 um and 211 is a great resource um for

[00:29:09] it just needs that come along with these social issues that we are addressing um they can also

[00:29:15] connect people with a number of organizations that uh need volunteers service opportunities

[00:29:23] serving meals working one-on-one with individuals um and so so much opportunity for people to really

[00:29:31] get involved in yes you will fall in love with the individuals precious precious um just most

[00:29:40] exceptional human beings truly um and it's uh you will be blessed doesn't mean it's not you're

[00:29:48] not going to be frustrated and then it's it's messy and it's hard but oh it's so worth it

[00:29:54] you know to do it and so well gentlemen thank you so much for being on this podcast any final

[00:30:01] thoughts um as we close this out just one it takes a village to help these these uh folks

[00:30:09] to get back on their feet and just be empathetic so when you when you see them put yourself in their

[00:30:14] shoes you know yeah absolutely i think chris hit the nail on the head i have to stop going second

[00:30:22] he always takes the good but um but absolutely um and and i want to take an opportunity to thank

[00:30:29] you and save harbour well it's our pleasure and i just appreciate the opportunity to collaborate

[00:30:37] with you guys um anytime that chris is retired well he thinks he's retired but even then i know

[00:30:44] that if i call either one of you gentlemen that you will show up in a flash um if there's a need

[00:30:50] and so i appreciate you both thank you so much for tuning in and um so check out um the 211 with

[00:31:00] united way you can also access some resources um at safe harbour nc.org um tap into some gratitude

[00:31:08] look for opportunities to serve um and acknowledge mental health awareness month for that throughout

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