RedPubPod #031 Beth Copeland ”The Mountains are in My DNA”

[00:00:00] This is RedPubPod, RedPubPod, a podcast.

[00:00:07] That's kind of a tongue twister.

[00:00:11] That's why we like the RedHaw publications.

[00:00:14] Good morning, good afternoon, or good evening out there in podcast land.

[00:00:19] And welcome to RedPubPod, coming to you live from the Push Welded Studios of Kitabah Valley Community College in Hickory, North Carolina.

[00:00:27] We're here with RedHawk Publications, we're here with Patty Thompson, we're here with Richard Eller,

[00:00:33] and today we're here with Beth Copeland, who I'm going to turn it over to Patty and let her introduce our special guest.

[00:00:41] Thank you, thank you Robert, and Richard of course for all of your skills.

[00:00:45] Beth, it's a pleasure to have you today.

[00:00:47] Thank you.

[00:00:48] Just so that you guys know, and everyone out there in podcast land, this is April and it is National Poetry Month.

[00:00:55] And if you get a chance to check out our Facebook page, you'll see every single day.

[00:00:59] I've been very dedicated about posting a poetry poem of the month.

[00:01:03] And Beth, you were up on one of our most recent days and certainly got a lot of response.

[00:01:10] But it makes sense, your newest book that we've been blessed to publish, Shibori Blue, 36 Views of the Peak, has been really selling quite well.

[00:01:19] Congratulations.

[00:01:20] Thank you, that's good to hear.

[00:01:22] Yeah, yeah, you've got a lot of folks that are very interested in what you do, but I have a feeling it has a lot to do with your background,

[00:01:28] which I'm going to do in a proper intro right now.

[00:01:31] Because you have fascinated me from the first time I ever got an email from you.

[00:01:38] Everyone's background, I'm sure inspires what they write and the poems that they write.

[00:01:43] And you were raised kind of all over the place.

[00:01:45] You were born in Japan.

[00:01:47] Yes.

[00:01:48] And you traveled throughout India.

[00:01:50] And of course, now you're in North Carolina, but I sense a military connection here.

[00:01:54] Actually, it's a missionary connection.

[00:01:57] Yeah, my parents were missionaries in Japan and I was born there.

[00:02:02] And they went to Japan with my two older sisters in the late 40s.

[00:02:08] And as you can imagine, that was a pretty brave thing for them to do so soon after World War Two.

[00:02:15] But it was a wonderful place to live.

[00:02:17] There was never any animosity towards us.

[00:02:21] And children are very much nurtured in Japan, so it was a very good experience.

[00:02:29] Well, I can tell you right now, I think that being there again during Occupied Japan,

[00:02:35] that had to be a very interesting point of history and also being there as an American and as a child of a missionary.

[00:02:43] So that's wonderful.

[00:02:44] And you lived in India as well?

[00:02:46] We lived in India when I was in the seventh grade.

[00:02:49] By that time, my father was teaching at Southeastern Baptist Seminary in Wake Forest,

[00:02:56] which is where I spent most of my childhood.

[00:02:59] But he had a Fulbright to study as a visiting scholar.

[00:03:04] His field was comparative religion.

[00:03:06] And so we lived in Varanasi, which is the city on the Ganges that is the holy city to the Hindus.

[00:03:14] It's where people go to die because they believe that if they are cremated in their ashes,

[00:03:24] go into the Ganges that they can escape the cycle of rebirth and go straight to the afterlife.

[00:03:31] So it was kind of a strange place to be as a 12-year-old girl going on 13.

[00:03:38] And I didn't always appreciate the unique opportunity that I'd been given because I missed my friends.

[00:03:48] As you can imagine, but it was really...

[00:03:51] And then really the only opportunity you had for new friends were people who were coming to die.

[00:03:55] Well, there's a man coming across the yard.

[00:04:01] We would hear people chanting as they were carrying the dead bodies to the burning gods.

[00:04:11] But I did have some connection with girls my age.

[00:04:17] My older sister and I went to a girl's school where we were able to...

[00:04:23] We only went one day a week, I think, and we took an art class

[00:04:26] because that was something we could do without speaking the language.

[00:04:30] But in both Japan and India, I think the hard thing was that as outsiders

[00:04:36] we received so much attention that it was kind of unnerving at times.

[00:04:41] And I'm just curious... By the way, I've been to Varanasi, so you might have seen a little PTSD on my face.

[00:04:47] I did.

[00:04:48] That's kind of crazy. Yeah, it's an unusual place.

[00:04:51] Very.

[00:04:52] Your education. As you would travel to these different countries...

[00:04:57] And I understand that you did spend time in Carolinas because your dad was here.

[00:05:01] But how did you pick up your education in other countries like in India for that full year?

[00:05:07] Was it an American school, an international school?

[00:05:10] In India my two older sisters had a correspondence course that they took.

[00:05:15] I think it was from the University of Wisconsin provided that for them.

[00:05:19] Since I was in junior high, I really just took my books and it was up to me

[00:05:23] to my mother kind of lost patience with me after a while

[00:05:27] because I didn't like having my mother as my teacher.

[00:05:31] So I read a lot, but my math skills are terrible as a result of that

[00:05:37] because I didn't really study math or science.

[00:05:41] Well yeah, if I'm 12 or 13 and you were homeschooled before homeschooling was a thing.

[00:05:47] So I get it.

[00:05:49] It's like, yeah, well those are the classes I think I can spend more time on later.

[00:05:53] So I can appreciate that.

[00:05:55] How long have you lived in North Carolina now?

[00:05:58] I lived in the Midwest in Chicago for about 26 years

[00:06:04] and I went to grad school in Bowling Green, Ohio.

[00:06:08] But then I came back.

[00:06:10] So I've been in North Carolina, you know, for I'd say a third of my life at least

[00:06:17] and I love it here.

[00:06:19] I noticed that you taught in Fayetteville?

[00:06:22] Yes, I taught.

[00:06:23] Southest Methodist?

[00:06:24] Methodist University.

[00:06:25] Yeah, I taught there for about 10 years.

[00:06:28] So you do have some Eastern, you like the Eastern style barbecue?

[00:06:34] Is that what I was talking about?

[00:06:35] I do. I actually, I do like the vinegar style.

[00:06:38] Yeah.

[00:06:39] Now you better watch out.

[00:06:41] It's the first controversial thing that's ever been uttered on a red book podcast.

[00:06:45] It's going to start all kinds of wars and battles and boycotts, the program.

[00:06:51] That'll be your next poetry session, writing poems on the Eastern versus Western style barbecue.

[00:06:59] When did you start writing?

[00:07:01] When I was, well the year I lived in India I wrote a lot, you know.

[00:07:06] I had a journal and I just was pretty isolated, you know, didn't really.

[00:07:12] As a young woman you couldn't just go out by yourself.

[00:07:16] You know, you had to have a chaperone in that culture.

[00:07:20] And so I didn't really have friends my age and spent most of my time with my family.

[00:07:27] So I did a lot of writing and I think poetry, I think I wrote my first poem where I really felt like the hairs on my neck were standing up, you know.

[00:07:37] That was when I was, I believe, a sophomore in high school.

[00:07:41] Wow, okay.

[00:07:42] And were you an English lit major or a creative writing major?

[00:07:46] I was an English major.

[00:07:47] I went to St Andrews University in Laurynburg and I went there because there was a poet in residence and, you know, I knew that I wanted to study poetry.

[00:07:59] His name was Ron Bays and he was a wonderful professor because he was just very nurturing.

[00:08:07] And, you know, I think at that age if I'd had a professor who was real critical of my writing I might have been intimidated and just given up.

[00:08:15] But, you know, he really encouraged me.

[00:08:19] And from there I went on to graduate school.

[00:08:22] Was it creative writing degree?

[00:08:23] Yeah, it was an MFA in creative writing.

[00:08:27] In terms of your career were you always writing?

[00:08:30] Did you have a day gig?

[00:08:32] Did you have a job in addition to writing on the side?

[00:08:35] Oh, I've always had a day gig.

[00:08:39] I mean you can't live as a poet unless you're independently wealthy.

[00:08:44] And I did a number of different jobs.

[00:08:47] I worked for non-profit organizations and, you know, teaching at the college level.

[00:08:54] And, you know, sometimes I was a bartender even, you know, when I couldn't find a better job.

[00:08:59] So I've done a lot of different work.

[00:09:01] Bars are great places to find inspiration for stories and poems.

[00:09:05] Oh, absolutely.

[00:09:06] Lots of stories around the bar there.

[00:09:08] It's an education in itself.

[00:09:11] That said, you were collecting your poems I presume during your entire life.

[00:09:18] But at what point did you say I'm ready to start publishing?

[00:09:22] And it might have been in journals too but what point did you start sending out your work?

[00:09:27] I started sending it out when I was in college.

[00:09:31] That was one thing that Ron encouraged me to do.

[00:09:35] And he said start at the top, you know, so I was sending poetry to the New Yorker and places like that.

[00:09:41] There you were.

[00:09:42] I really, you know, had no chance of getting published there but, you know,

[00:09:46] I did get published in a few literary magazines and continued that when I was older.

[00:09:53] And your very first book that you published, your collection, what was that process like?

[00:10:00] And, you know, did you get accepted by millions of publishers?

[00:10:04] We want to know the horror stories.

[00:10:06] Forget the bad, the ugly.

[00:10:07] Well I was very fortunate that my first book was published when I was in college.

[00:10:13] It was, there was a competition at St. Andrews.

[00:10:17] At that time it was a school that was just really, really supportive of writers.

[00:10:22] And it was for seniors for a chat book competition.

[00:10:27] So I was one of two people who got their little chat books published that year.

[00:10:34] And, you know, I didn't realize at the time how unusual that was and also at that college there were poetry readings every single week.

[00:10:43] And we had some fairly well-known poets who came through and read there, you know,

[00:10:48] but I just figured it was that way everywhere, you know.

[00:10:51] I didn't realize how unusual it was.

[00:10:53] And if I'm not mistaken St. Andrews had a publishing press at the time.

[00:10:57] Yes, yes.

[00:10:58] Isn't St. Andrews where brothers and sisters?

[00:11:02] Brothers and sisters, yeah, like us.

[00:11:03] Yeah.

[00:11:04] Yeah, that's where it was done.

[00:11:05] Yeah, so we took over a book because St. Andrews Press, I don't believe is around anymore.

[00:11:10] I'm not sure what they're doing there.

[00:11:12] They have new leadership now and things are changing.

[00:11:15] But it seems to me that must be a university that really does nurture writing and appreciate it to the extent that they had a press.

[00:11:23] That impresses me.

[00:11:24] Or it did.

[00:11:25] Yeah.

[00:11:26] I mean, you can't tell today in today's climate.

[00:11:29] Yeah.

[00:11:30] And when you were teaching, of course, you taught creative writing.

[00:11:34] Well, I taught English composition more.

[00:11:38] You know, it's very hard to get those plum positions, you know, and it's really competitive.

[00:11:46] Oh, tell me about it.

[00:11:49] The only way I can sneak poetry into my English composition is when I mention of Emily Dickinson poem every once in a while and I'll read it to him or something like that.

[00:12:00] I just had Adrian Rice in my office the other day.

[00:12:03] We were chatting about poetry and he was telling me about his creative writing classes and poetry classes.

[00:12:10] And he told me something that was kind of surprising, but he asked his freshman students who their favorite American living poet is.

[00:12:20] And there were no hands raised.

[00:12:23] None of his students knew a living American poet.

[00:12:28] And I even said, not even Amanda Gorm, everybody knows at least who she is.

[00:12:33] He's like, nobody knew one.

[00:12:35] And long story short, he even spoke to some faculty members that also didn't know and it was kind of surprising, you know.

[00:12:45] So poetry is being dist and we got to figure out why, but I think it probably starts more in K through 12.

[00:12:51] You think it's becoming a lost art?

[00:12:54] I don't think so.

[00:12:56] I mean, I think that the definition of poetry is expanding with spoken word.

[00:13:03] I think there are people who are drawn in more now than just reading academic poets.

[00:13:10] I think spoken word has become a medium that's accessible for people.

[00:13:15] And you know, there are the Instagram poets and all of that.

[00:13:19] And no matter what we may think of it, you know, it is popular.

[00:13:24] And it surprises me when, you know, handling some of our social media accounts when you put in hashtag Instagram poet or hashtag Tic Tac poet.

[00:13:36] Tons of, you know, other poets poems come up.

[00:13:41] So I do know people are using it and they are using poetry.

[00:13:45] They are using social media.

[00:13:47] Maybe the younger poets which we are always looking for, maybe that's their medium.

[00:13:52] They're not going for publishing.

[00:13:53] They're not going for the New York or the Atlantic.

[00:13:55] They're doing it on social media.

[00:13:58] And you can't say it's wrong.

[00:14:00] It's just different.

[00:14:02] Well, that's part of the evolution of just about anything.

[00:14:05] I mean to properly teach poetry to students is to teach them not to be intimidated by it.

[00:14:11] A lot of them come to the classroom with this idea that poetry is hard and you can't understand it.

[00:14:16] And you know, if somebody thrust upon them the wasteland by T.S. Eliot and said,

[00:14:21] here tell me what this is about and no one can.

[00:14:23] I don't even think Eliot could tell us really what it was about.

[00:14:27] But if you preface poetry to students and tell them that they're not going to like every poet that they read or every poem that they read,

[00:14:35] they loosen up a little bit.

[00:14:37] It's the same thing with Shakespeare's plays.

[00:14:39] You know, they foist upon them Julius Caesar in printed form and say,

[00:14:44] here read this and then they grow up going, God, I hate Shakespeare.

[00:14:47] But if they see it performed as it was intended or they're introduced to poetry through music

[00:14:53] or they're introduced to poetry through slam competitions and things like that,

[00:14:57] they actually don't know that they love poetry until you make them realize they do.

[00:15:03] So I think you're right about that evolutionary idea of what poetry is and how it's defined.

[00:15:10] Plus the delivery of it is changing.

[00:15:12] It's not just in books anymore.

[00:15:14] It's, you know, I could say spoken word events and that sort of thing that I have a much greater,

[00:15:19] it would seem immediacy to it.

[00:15:21] Yeah, and if you go to TikTok and you see these young people doing their live spoken word, which is poetry.

[00:15:30] And now I don't have to read it.

[00:15:33] I mean, I'm just saying it's not wrong.

[00:15:35] It's just different.

[00:15:36] I can go to TikTok and see Sierra Jones, just beautiful gold pieces coming out of her mouth.

[00:15:42] It's poems.

[00:15:44] It is spoken word but it's what, I guess it's what the young ones are doing today.

[00:15:50] Well, those kind of performances too when they're not videotaped or not, you know, taped, they're ephemeral.

[00:15:57] They only exist at that moment and you tell people, wow, you missed it.

[00:16:01] You know, it's like concerts used to be when, you know, in the back in the day or stage plays.

[00:16:07] You lived at that one time and that was it.

[00:16:10] And some of these slam competitions, they're not all recording for posterity.

[00:16:15] And a lot of people say, wow, you should have been there.

[00:16:17] It was great.

[00:16:19] And it happened.

[00:16:20] Yes.

[00:16:21] And the demands I think of spoken word are different than the demands of poetry on the page.

[00:16:28] You know, as a poet who writes on the page primarily, I pay a lot of attention to form, to line breaks, stands up breaks, all that kind of stuff, you know, that I was trained to look for and to condensation, you know, trying to condense, to use as few words as possible.

[00:16:50] Whereas in spoken word, you know, it's stream of consciousness often and the rules are different.

[00:17:00] But there are rules I think and I think it is a legitimate form.

[00:17:05] Well, that's another thing I was talking to Adrian about.

[00:17:09] He was telling me that a good poet has a sniffer, has a good nose for what is good poetry and what is bad poetry.

[00:17:20] And I just sat there listening to him and naturally over the weekend I Google what's bad poetry.

[00:17:24] You know, I really wanted to know what is considered good, what is considered bad.

[00:17:29] And this is poems on paper not necessarily spoken word.

[00:17:33] Do you have a definition?

[00:17:35] Oh gosh.

[00:17:38] I like poems and this is just my personal aesthetic.

[00:17:42] You know, I think it's not so much good or bad.

[00:17:45] I don't like to make those kinds of judgment calls.

[00:17:48] I think it's more what's in line with my aesthetic and I do pay attention to my ear as I'm writing.

[00:17:57] I like to be able to hear the language out loud, which is one of the reasons I appreciate spoken word because I when I'm writing,

[00:18:06] I read it out loud to myself because I care about how it sounds.

[00:18:12] And I think that that's an important aspect.

[00:18:18] I also like poetry that uses unusual imagery or something that I can visualize in my mind as I'm reading

[00:18:27] or something that I can feel in a tactile way, you know, as I'm reading the poem.

[00:18:37] I like those kinds of poems and I also like first person poems where poets are honest, you know, about their experiences as opposed to just writing in abstractions.

[00:18:53] Well, in that vein, you include quotes from Yoko Ono throughout your book.

[00:18:58] What's the connection? Why did you do that?

[00:19:01] Well, I just I saw that little poem of hers and I was at the time I was working on this book and I thought, you know, I need some kind of section break because I had decided that I was going to break it up into seasonal sections

[00:19:19] because that's very much a Japanese thing to do and you know, I'm riffing off Hokusai so I thought I would work in that vein and I saw that little poem and I thought this works.

[00:19:34] It certainly breaks it into seasons and not only that but for those of you that are not as familiar Shibori Blue 36 views of the peak is written by Beth Copeland.

[00:19:44] And of course you can get it where Robert?

[00:19:47] You can get it at redhawkpublications.com.

[00:19:50] Yay!

[00:19:51] And we just had her just signed about a dozen copies.

[00:19:56] So if you order today, you can get a signed autographed copy.

[00:20:01] And what's really cool about this book and that's probably why I gravitated it to it so quickly Beth because it does have Fuji-san in the background but it's actually the peak.

[00:20:13] And the peak is a mountain because Beth lives in Ash County in the Blue Ridge Mountains and from her backyard she can see the peak which is the highest point in Ash County.

[00:20:23] So she's been taking a collection of photos just with her phone and this particular collection which makes it so beautiful is not only do you have a tanka style poem which Beth will discuss in a moment but it's accompanied by her photography which is quite beautiful.

[00:20:40] Thank you.

[00:20:41] It's a slim collection and it's very specialized, very stylized.

[00:20:46] And I like the fact that it is divided into seasons and that again a Japanese device.

[00:20:53] And folks this is unlike any collection we've done.

[00:20:56] This is in and of itself something that's brand new.

[00:20:59] It's got beautiful photography and beautiful color but it's one of those books that it's a little bit more expensive in the retailing because of the fact that it's in color.

[00:21:10] But without those photographs I don't think it's got the one-two punch.

[00:21:15] So this is something new for us that we've done so thank you Beth for bringing us this.

[00:21:21] Thank you for publishing me.

[00:21:23] To me it is just a piece of art in addition to poetry being art but the photography but the way it's packaged and knowing that it's got the tanka structure.

[00:21:33] It to me it's incredibly special and it does for those of you that are familiar with Hokusai the Japanese artist in the early 19th century.

[00:21:42] And you think you don't know him but you do.

[00:21:44] You've seen that iconic The Wave and the teeny little Fuji sound in the background.

[00:21:50] He was an iconic Japanese artist and woodcutter and so tell us a little bit about how you have what tanka is for those that might not know.

[00:22:01] And then how you kind of stylized this after Hokusai.

[00:22:05] Okay tanka is a Japanese form that is similar to haiku.

[00:22:10] I think everybody knows haiku with the five seven five syllable count.

[00:22:14] But tanka has two extra lines of seven syllables each so it gives the poet a little more room to express ideas and feelings.

[00:22:30] And that was useful for me because I think haiku would have been a little too short to really get where I wanted to go with these poems.

[00:22:40] And in terms of how this project started when I moved to the mountains in 2019, I just started taking pictures of the peak and that name the peak.

[00:22:55] I wish it had a more poetic name.

[00:22:57] And often I will tell people, oh you know it's the peak and they say well but what's its name?

[00:23:04] You know but its name is the peak.

[00:23:07] And somebody says it's named after any freeze.

[00:23:11] Hey I haven't heard that one before.

[00:23:14] I like that.

[00:23:17] But you know the view that I see is one where it does have this resemblance to Fuji because it has a little dimple at the top.

[00:23:29] And from a distance it almost looks like a crater but of course it's not a volcanic, a live volcano like Fuji-san.

[00:23:42] So I started taking the pictures at different times of the day and I was just sharing them with friends on Facebook.

[00:23:48] I'm not a photographer really.

[00:23:50] I mean I don't have any training.

[00:23:52] I've never taken a photography class.

[00:23:54] I was using my iPhone.

[00:23:57] But it's hard to get a bad picture of that mountain, you know because it is such a beautiful mountain that even with my mediocre skills

[00:24:09] I'm somebody who's often had my thumb in the picture.

[00:24:15] I still came away with some really gorgeous photographs and so people on Facebook would occasionally say your mountain looks like Mount Fuji.

[00:24:25] And so it wasn't just me who saw the resemblance.

[00:24:30] And then I had a friend who I knew when I was in grad school at Bowling Green and he's a friend on Facebook.

[00:24:38] And he said to me, you should write 36 poems about the peak just as Hokusai wrote and published a folio of 36 prints of Fuji.

[00:24:56] And so I can't take credit for this idea.

[00:24:59] It was Mark's idea.

[00:25:01] Mark Berman.

[00:25:03] He wrote a wonderful blurb for you and it seemed like he had done his work too so he knew what he was talking about.

[00:25:08] Oh absolutely.

[00:25:10] But he didn't know that you had a history with Japan.

[00:25:12] I don't think so.

[00:25:13] I don't think that ever came up when we were friends in school and he just came up with this brilliant idea and I thought, oh I like that idea.

[00:25:23] So I ran with it and started selecting 36 poems, which was 36 photos, which was a pretty hard process because there were a lot that I liked.

[00:25:36] And then I wrote the tanka to go with the photographs.

[00:25:41] I'll tell you one of the things I did this weekend was I actually went on Google and I looked at the 36 views from Hokusai.

[00:25:48] Because I wanted to see it once again knowing a little bit more because I learned through your book to appreciate Fuji and Hokusai a little bit more.

[00:25:56] So I went back to all 36 plates and sure enough Fuji's in the background might be tiny, but Fuji's there.

[00:26:02] There might be a huge wave in front of it, but Fuji's in the background in all 36.

[00:26:07] So you did a wonderful job in it.

[00:26:09] Again, it's a piece of art.

[00:26:11] Thank you.

[00:26:13] Hokusai went on to publish 100 views of Mount Fuji.

[00:26:18] So he didn't stop at 36.

[00:26:20] I don't know if I will do that or not, but...

[00:26:23] Well, at least that gives you something to do.

[00:26:25] Yes.

[00:26:27] I think his plan was to get to 110 when he got to 110 years old.

[00:26:32] Right.

[00:26:33] He thought at age 70 he still didn't feel that he had reached his peak yet.

[00:26:40] And I'm in my early 70s.

[00:26:43] So I felt this connection with Hokusai and this sense of being older but still being productive is important to me too.

[00:26:56] Yes, his goal was to do 110 by the time he turned 110, but I think he only got to 88.

[00:27:02] He got 88?

[00:27:03] 88.

[00:27:04] 88, yeah.

[00:27:05] Something's a little short, but you still have time.

[00:27:07] You look beautiful.

[00:27:09] I get that goal, 110.

[00:27:11] I don't think I want to go that long, but I'd like to live to be 88.

[00:27:14] That would be...

[00:27:16] I'd like that.

[00:27:18] And what about the title Shibori Blue?

[00:27:21] When I googled the word Shibori Blue, I had all kinds of interesting returns that have like bowls and glassware and stuff like that.

[00:27:32] It's got that kind of blue.

[00:27:34] And what about the sky?

[00:27:36] The way the sky cooperated with you in each one of these photographs?

[00:27:41] Well, the title Shibori Blue came from the photograph that's on the cover.

[00:27:48] And the sky is very blue.

[00:27:52] It has those white, public clouds.

[00:27:54] And it reminded me of tai-dying.

[00:27:58] The word Shibori refers to a Japanese, very intricate Japanese tai-dying technique.

[00:28:05] And so that's where it came from.

[00:28:07] And I just like the sound of that word, you know?

[00:28:10] Yeah, pronounce it correctly for us again.

[00:28:12] Shibori.

[00:28:13] Shibori.

[00:28:14] I can't.

[00:28:15] In Japanese you don't really say an R, so it sounds more like a D, Shibori.

[00:28:20] And it's, you know, just a beautiful word.

[00:28:27] I like the sound of it and it seemed to fit with how I was trying to tie together Japanese sensibilities with my own Western culture.

[00:28:41] Well, like I say, it's simply magnificent.

[00:28:44] And I would, how long would you say it took you to complete the poems that go with the photos?

[00:28:51] Because I'm going to say probably what the photos came first.

[00:28:54] Yes.

[00:28:55] And then Mark gave you the idea.

[00:28:56] You kind of ran with it.

[00:28:57] So how long did it take you to do the 36?

[00:29:00] It took about a year.

[00:29:01] Okay.

[00:29:02] Or maybe less.

[00:29:03] I don't remember.

[00:29:04] But it was the easiest book I've ever written.

[00:29:07] You know, I mean, it just, the poems just kind of fell into place.

[00:29:12] I'd be walking my dog, you know, and just, I'd start the syllables would just kind of pop into my head and whatever I was seeing would come into the, come onto the page later.

[00:29:26] Well, I will say kind of following what with Robert said we haven't done anything quite like this before.

[00:29:32] It is very aesthetically beautiful.

[00:29:36] And when we put this pot up naturally you'll be hearing it.

[00:29:40] But I sometimes of course put them up on YouTube and I include some of the photos.

[00:29:45] I will be sharing what I'm looking at when you see the photos with the, the very stylized tank of poem on the bottom.

[00:29:54] It's just again a very beautiful piece of work.

[00:29:56] So thank you.

[00:29:57] Thank you.

[00:29:58] Is there is there one you'd like to read for the audience?

[00:30:02] Sure.

[00:30:03] I'd like to read.

[00:30:04] I've got my book, which I surely would love to hear an example of it and then rush right over to the website, redhawkpublications.com by the book.

[00:30:14] Well, here's one that's a spring, a spring poem.

[00:30:18] Blue stratus clouds resemble a mountain range seen from a distance.

[00:30:25] The mirrored eye, a mirage.

[00:30:28] We see rivers in the rain.

[00:30:33] That's marvelous.

[00:30:34] It really is more room to work in that than there is a high cave in there.

[00:30:38] But it's still got that rhythmic kind of syllable count to it.

[00:30:43] Great.

[00:30:44] Yeah, tankas are fun to write.

[00:30:46] I mean, or I should say tanka.

[00:30:48] You don't put the tanka R fun to write.

[00:30:52] In Japanese it's there, there is no, you know, you don't say tankas.

[00:30:57] You just say tanka singular for both singular and plural.

[00:31:02] What is the structure of tanka?

[00:31:04] So we know what haiku is, 575.

[00:31:07] What is that syllable?

[00:31:08] It's 57577.

[00:31:11] That's cool.

[00:31:12] And sounds like a phone number from the 1960s.

[00:31:16] I just try something to help you remember.

[00:31:20] It's like whenever you say tanka, I think about those trucks.

[00:31:23] I used to have when I was a little kid, the big metal dump trucks and things like that help you remember the style of poetry.

[00:31:31] Well, you could write a tanka about a tanka.

[00:31:37] Yeah, I think tanka allows for a little bit more of an emotional response.

[00:31:44] You know, haiku tend to be very much using your five senses, you know, and the writers often don't get into expressions of feeling as much as they do with tanka.

[00:31:57] Yeah, because you've got the two extra lines and I'm not mistaken.

[00:32:00] I think you either wrote this in your preface or maybe I read it somewhere else, but typically with tanka the first three lines describe a season.

[00:32:09] Right.

[00:32:10] And then the last two lines, your emotional connection to it.

[00:32:13] That's your commentary really.

[00:32:15] And my tanka are, you know, American tanka.

[00:32:21] So I'm sure they probably don't follow the rules of Japanese tanka, you know, to a T.

[00:32:29] But, you know, I hope that I capture the sensibility of the form.

[00:32:34] Well, I would say that this would be a book that anyone would want to get even for someone who may not value or appreciate poetry because this is art.

[00:32:44] And if you live in North Carolina, if you live in the mountains and you appreciate mountains, this would be the perfect gift.

[00:32:50] I really think so.

[00:32:51] I think it's marvelous how we can combine through a work of art like this, the idea of, you know, mountain living and with then you're combining it with the Japanese culture.

[00:33:02] You're combining it with, you know, the poet's life, you know, you've lived in different places, were raised in different places and cultures that have entirely different ways of seeing things than oftentimes American culture does.

[00:33:16] So this thing represents kind of like a synthesis of all of that.

[00:33:21] And I think that's another thing that contributes to it being unlike anything we've ever done before.

[00:33:27] So thank you for giving us an opportunity to do that.

[00:33:30] Thank you.

[00:33:31] That particular aspect of the project was something that made it so special for me, you know, was just somehow come full circle with where I am now living in the Appalachians,

[00:33:44] which is also part of my heritage.

[00:33:46] My father grew up in West Virginia and, you know, was very much the mountain culture was also something that I was raised with in terms of mountain values and so on.

[00:33:59] And so when I landed up in the mountains, I felt like it was a homecoming, like I had finally found the place where I belong.

[00:34:08] But, you know, Japan is also special to me.

[00:34:11] And so to be able to bring those two together was very fulfilling for me as a person.

[00:34:17] I think that's one of the things that a lot of folks don't understand about art being represented by the artist is, you know, the art gives us this representation of the artist.

[00:34:28] And what this book has done is it gives us both the mountains and it gives us your raising and growing up in the Japanese culture.

[00:34:37] And I think that's something that people, once they realize that they'll rush to this product and say, I've got to see how that synthesis works.

[00:34:46] That's terrific.

[00:34:47] I hope so.

[00:34:48] And you know, there are many Western artists who have rift off of Hokusai, you know, Lichtenstein, others who have used Hokusai as inspiration.

[00:34:59] So I'm certainly not the first.

[00:35:01] And I know I won't be the last to do it.

[00:35:05] And it's, you know, it's a rewarding experience.

[00:35:08] There's a beautiful poem that you put in your preface about of two mountains and two mines.

[00:35:14] Could I ask you to read that?

[00:35:16] Oh, sure.

[00:35:17] Sure.

[00:35:18] And this kind of ties into what you were saying, Robert, the universality of it all, you know, mountains, two mountains, the one in Japan, the one here.

[00:35:28] Universal, so many different things that are really just, we're all one, aren't we?

[00:35:34] Yeah.

[00:35:35] Tying to the earth.

[00:35:36] Tying to the earth because the earth calls us to where we ought to be.

[00:35:39] And you say the mountains, you figured out that's exactly where you ought to be.

[00:35:43] And the earth calls to us where we should spend our lives and our time.

[00:35:48] So yeah, I've told my sister once the mountains are in our DNA.

[00:35:53] And I believe that.

[00:35:55] And, you know, Fujisan is also in my memory.

[00:35:59] Good.

[00:36:00] So of two mountains and two mines, this morning's view of the peak is clearly defined, outlined in light as if each tree and leaf is sketched in silver point.

[00:36:14] Sometimes it's wrapped in fog or smoke like Monet's paintings of Mount Colsas in winter.

[00:36:22] A white oak stands in the West where the sun sets fire to black earth, where deer visit at dawn and late afternoon, standing silently at the edge of the driveway.

[00:36:34] As if it's a river they're afraid to step into.

[00:36:38] Then as soon as they see my figure in the doorway, they leap across gravel into the woods.

[00:36:45] A painting of Fujisan on an unfurled fan hangs over the white brocade couch in my house, a twin to the Blue Ridge crest.

[00:36:56] The mountain indoors mirrors the one outside, both conical from a distance formed by tectonic forces millions of years ago.

[00:37:07] Fujisan resonates with the sound of a bronze gong.

[00:37:11] Basha wandered along its winding paths and rode of the mountains wind, fire and snow.

[00:37:18] Pilgrims pray at Shinto shrines with stone lanterns and climb past cryptomeria trees to the Lotus Bud crater.

[00:37:28] If Nirvana is an empty plane, I don't want to go there.

[00:37:34] I'd rather contemplate two mountains, the inner and outer summits connecting us to the clouds and the spirits of ancestors.

[00:37:45] That's marvelous.

[00:37:47] It really is.

[00:37:48] Thank you.

[00:37:49] That's a great note to end on.

[00:37:51] I know.

[00:37:52] When I read this the other day I just kind of got goosebumps because again it's one of those things where having been to Fuji and having been to the mountains, it just meant a lot to me so thank you.

[00:38:02] Thank you Patty.

[00:38:03] It's wonderful to hear that.

[00:38:06] Well I think we're kind of wrapping this up except I know where Albert has one more question for Beth.

[00:38:13] I do?

[00:38:14] Oh yes.

[00:38:15] What am I supposed to say?

[00:38:17] Red Pub Pod.

[00:38:18] Oh can you say for us Red Pub Pod?

[00:38:21] Say what?

[00:38:22] Red Pub Pod.

[00:38:24] Red Pub Pod.

[00:38:26] Yes, that's the name of what we're doing right now, the show we're doing.

[00:38:29] Red Pub Pod.

[00:38:30] That's kind of a tongue twister.

[00:38:32] Yes, that's why we like to ask people to say it.

[00:38:35] And then Richard cuts it out and does all kinds of things that will embarrass you later.

[00:38:39] Oh no.

[00:38:40] No.

[00:38:41] I already know what he's going to do.

[00:38:43] I just used it out of context.

[00:38:47] It may not be the first time you've been quoted in that way.

[00:38:50] No, probably not.

[00:38:52] Thank you Beth so much for coming down from the mountains to visit us here in Hickory.

[00:38:56] It means a lot to us.

[00:38:57] Yes it does.

[00:38:58] Thank you for having me.

[00:38:59] It was my pleasure.

[00:39:00] And thank you out there in podcast land for downloading and listening to Red Pub Pod.

[00:39:07] We are available at all places you can get your podcasts and go to redhawkpublications.com

[00:39:13] to view our catalog and take advantage of our books.

[00:39:17] And just join us next time for Patty Thompson and Richard Eller.

[00:39:22] This is Red Pub Pod.

[00:39:24] Red Pub Pod.

[00:39:26] Oh that was awful.

[00:39:28] Red Pub Pod.

[00:39:30] You sound drunk and it's supposed to be early in the morning.

[00:39:33] I'll use that.

[00:39:37] Come see us again.

[00:39:39] Thank you.

[00:39:40] You've been listening to Red Pub Pod.

[00:39:44] Red Pub Pod.

[00:39:47] A podcast.

[00:39:48] Red Pub Pod.

[00:39:49] From Redhawk Publications.

[00:39:50] Red Pub.

[00:39:51] Oh that was awful.

[00:39:53] Pub Pod.