RedPubPod #029 “Willis, You’ve Come a Long Way”

[00:00:00] This is RedPubPod. Good morning, good afternoon or good evening out there in podcast

[00:00:17] slam. This is Robert Kanaipa along with Patty Thompson and Richard Ellor and this

[00:00:22] is RedPubPod. So cue the theme music. Today we are pleased to have in our midst Dr.

[00:00:32] C. L. Willis, Cecil Willis, the author of a book called Hillbilly Odyssey, Resilience

[00:00:38] and a Small Mountain Mill Town. Dr. Willis is a native of Canton North Carolina, Professor

[00:00:45] Emeritus of Sociology and Criminology at the University of North Carolina, Wilmington.

[00:00:52] Previous publications were scholarly articles in social science journals but after retiring

[00:00:57] from UNC Wilmington he's moved back to his beloved mountains. He lives with his daughter

[00:01:03] son-in-law and two grandchildren in Alexander County North Carolina. Welcome. Welcome Dr.

[00:01:08] Willis. Thank you. It's Alexander City and the other North Carolina. Yeah but it's outside

[00:01:15] of Weaverville and Asheville. Well welcome to the plush welded studios of RedHawk Publications.

[00:01:21] You know it's funny when I heard that you were from Alexander. Alexander is a community

[00:01:31] and a cooperative community but it's near Weaverville about 15 minutes from Weaverville.

[00:01:38] Not knowing that there was an Alexander City if you will. I remember asking you, well just

[00:01:44] come on over and pick your books up because we live in Arizona and I got them a little

[00:01:50] confused. So he's like yeah I'll come over and then I realize oh this is not close.

[00:01:57] Then we got to figure out now who's responsible for the typo and about the author that we're

[00:02:02] going to have to fix. Something just happened to my audio, that's weird. Is it on? Okay. Anyway I

[00:02:14] want to start off the questioning here with I'm just very interested in the fact when you

[00:02:20] and I talked about this earlier and when you talked to Patty about it we mentioned this book

[00:02:28] another book with Hillbilly in the title that also has the word Eligee in the title

[00:02:34] and this is your kind of response to that to that book. Yes it is. I had

[00:02:42] you know when the Hillbilly Eligee first came out it was presented in the national media

[00:02:48] in reviews and so forth as you know this is the quintessential statement or authentic portrayal

[00:02:58] of Appalachian people. And I haven't been from Appalachia myself and growing up there and after

[00:03:07] reading it I realize that well this is not an accurate portrayal of my experiences in Appalachia.

[00:03:19] And it was distorted and he was and presented the Appalachian people in very stereotypical

[00:03:27] ways I think you know that is sort of the popular view of people and of people that often refer

[00:03:36] to his you know Hillbilly's. So his personal story to me was very you know I guess compelling

[00:03:45] and call it but he was you know he reinforced this straight you know that Appalachian people are

[00:03:54] or backward or you know slow-frink and lazy you know inceptive to substance abuse you know

[00:04:06] that's their fault. He was blaming them and their culture for all the problems

[00:04:13] that that were you know found in Appalachian areas so I was you know

[00:04:23] it wasn't I guess happy with this portrayal and I'd already done a lot of you know even myself

[00:04:32] background reading and so forth about the problems in Appalachian so forth. And I just thought

[00:04:39] he just presented a distorted view and the thing is it was in the national media as

[00:04:46] as something that was real. And you know there are there is substance abuse in Appalachia

[00:04:52] there is a poverty you know there are substance abuse right down the street from where we sit

[00:04:59] right now in poverty from you know right here in the area yeah yeah and you know someone said

[00:05:05] that he engaged in poverty shaming because he criticized town the people's lifestyle you know how

[00:05:10] they ate you know they had cinnamon rolls for breakfast and taco bell from lunch and McDonald's

[00:05:16] for supper you know what they didn't really know about nutrition they didn't care about

[00:05:22] health issues and so forth. And I grew up in Appalachian I grew up in a farm and you know we had

[00:05:29] we had you know that's called organic food before it was cool you know we grew we grew on food

[00:05:36] generally we had you know garden and vegetables and you know fresh chicken chicken chicken

[00:05:44] you know chicken laying egg and then when chicken no longer laid in egg it was a spent chicken so

[00:05:50] wait because it was on the Sunday dinner table you know and so that was that was our my experience

[00:05:56] you know we you know that now people are very you know self-reliant you know we were in a

[00:06:02] sexual state I believe it kind of was almost a self-restaining household when I was growing up

[00:06:07] and I for early years and so you know this this is not you know my experience and and so

[00:06:16] that's the reason I used the title in this when I was writing this is a heavily audacity you know

[00:06:23] this is you know obviously this was type of journey and so forth to self-discovery in a lot

[00:06:28] of ways and it is my journey in many ways it's my story of my own self-discovery except

[00:06:34] and where I came from and except in who I am and my family was and my you know neighbors were

[00:06:44] and so forth and so that's you know that's the origin of that and I know some people may look

[00:06:50] at that and like well you know you're just doing another allergy and I'm not you know I'm

[00:06:54] well there's a there's a big difference I made a I did a little googling while I go

[00:07:00] and you know the name of your book is Hillbelly Odyssey and the definition of an Odyssey is

[00:07:06] long wandering voyage usually marked by many changes of fortune whereas analogy is a poem of sorrow

[00:07:14] or lamentation so the difference between an Odyssey and an Energy there's a hopefulness in an

[00:07:20] Odyssey and you write about those hopeful things in the book that you know just like you've said

[00:07:27] you know we were we were organic before organic was cool and these kind of things and there's

[00:07:34] some stuff to be pushed there. Patty you you mentioned something to me this morning that you wanted

[00:07:41] to ask Dr. Willis. Well as I mentioned just a little prior to the podcast when I met Dr. Willis in

[00:07:47] the hallway I was very happy to read this book because for someone from the northeast not being

[00:07:54] as familiar with mountain lifestyle upbringing it was really educational for me and to be honest

[00:08:02] with you and I thought about most folks living in that bladgett and having worked with some

[00:08:08] folks from West Virginia I typically think about coal mining and I think when you start thinking

[00:08:13] about Canton and you know it's a paper mill you know instead of everybody going off to the coal mines

[00:08:20] you've got everybody going to a paper mill it's a little bit different and it is a store what do

[00:08:26] they call it a company town you know Canton the history of it at least the way you portray

[00:08:32] what paper meant to this town. Everybody more or less lived for that company the various transitions

[00:08:40] of the paper company which we all know as of 2023 and I don't think it's anymore it's no longer there

[00:08:47] so again I want to just share with our listeners and folks who may want to read this book

[00:08:53] it is a different way of life but you accurately portrayed it and I could visualize what it was

[00:08:59] in like a simpler time very self-right self-efficient you've got you had parents that instilled a lot of

[00:09:07] a lot of good moral values upbringing you had teachers that can't work ethic work ethic

[00:09:14] um you know the importance of taking care of your land and taking care of the new home

[00:09:22] your dad created it's like it really does create a lovely story of a lovely time and it is important

[00:09:31] for folks to realize this is a memoir you know the difference between an allergy and an odyssey

[00:09:38] initially when we start talking to folks in podcasts we ask them about their backgrounds well

[00:09:42] I can't ask you about your background your book and your background it's a little different you know

[00:09:48] this is your odyssey this is your journey and you know you go on to not only leave a small town where

[00:09:54] a lot of folks don't but you've gone on with with several degrees behind your belt

[00:10:00] and you've returned to the mountains so your your story presents something a little different from

[00:10:06] what we normally do when we interview a poet or nonfiction this it's interesting to

[00:10:12] talk to somebody who's writing a memoir and that's one of the reasons why I looked up those two

[00:10:16] different words is because you know one is very you know pessimistic while the word odyssey

[00:10:24] is very promising it's very optimistic and we've done books uh let's say Richard we've done

[00:10:31] furniture mills books we've done weaving out of road hiss one other factory we've done the

[00:10:39] the Hinger River Mill Village yeah we did that then we're working right now on doing more furniture

[00:10:45] worker stories right so yeah we've covered a lot of what it means to grow up and be part of the

[00:10:53] industrial community of western North Carolina yeah and I think dr. Willis's book reflects

[00:10:58] the same values and the same descriptions of what we've had in those other books so which book is

[00:11:04] the outlier which book is the book that doesn't fit uh that that schedule it has to be mr. vans'

[00:11:14] because it's the only one that disparages you know disparage your neighbor and and stereotype

[00:11:21] and these kind of things so yeah I feel also didn't grow up there and I think that's important for folks

[00:11:24] to know if i'm not mistaken jadey vans he just spent his summers there right i mean he wasn't

[00:11:30] brought up there no he was he was burned up and i think so no i was somewhere and we're his

[00:11:38] grandparents moved to yeah out of worse no out of Kentucky and you know in the in the Appalachian

[00:11:49] area very Appalachian area of Kentucky and he only visited there on in the summer you know

[00:11:55] in occasion and the family his family down the area was primarily what you might call a

[00:12:02] dysfunctional family truly all families have this some dysfunction in the mouth and you know

[00:12:08] truly you know substance abuse violence you know they you know and it was uh you know he kind of

[00:12:18] portrayed his family as a quintessential Appalachian family and uh you know it based upon just

[00:12:27] really you might say more superficial or limited experience so he really didn't grow i mean to

[00:12:33] grew up maybe watching my column Appalachian community because there were a lot of Appalachian people

[00:12:38] migrated up in the you know Ohio, Michigan places like that to find work in the factories there

[00:12:48] but he didn't truly grow up there and it was kind of like when he was writing his own story he's

[00:12:54] writing like look what I've done and these other people here these Bush Hillbillers hadn't done anything

[00:13:02] right and and you know it's kind of like a it's presented himself you know elevated himself

[00:13:09] i think above them and uh it's you know it's really you know uh that kind of story it's not a

[00:13:17] story of the people really it's not a there's not he doesn't look at you know the different

[00:13:24] and you know complexity of their lives you know the different and he wants his other lives he didn't

[00:13:30] do that simple oversimplify it really true absolutely that's a great way to describe it in oversimplification

[00:13:39] in the stereotypes if you folks out there in podcast land would like to get a taste of Hillbillia

[00:13:44] to see you can go to redhawkpublications.com and it is for sale there we can have it to you in just

[00:13:51] a couple of days that's redhawkpublications.com so we look forward to sending you a copy you can

[00:13:58] also get it on amazon.com and Barnes and Noble.com as well but we're able to give Dr. Willis a

[00:14:04] little bit more royalty money if you buy it from us so if you don't want to help Jeff Bezos and

[00:14:11] more rockets into the air you can just go on over to redhawkpublications.com and I get it from us.

[00:14:17] Dr. Willis your book is also a marvelous history book as well I mean not only is your personal memoir

[00:14:25] and you're growing up your memories from growing up but I learned a lot about the paper business

[00:14:31] I love this chapter called The Smell of Money Chapter 5 and I wanted to ask you this morning how

[00:14:36] our things in camp today after the evergreen closure announcement back in 2020 30. Yes as Patty

[00:14:44] mentioned and well about a year ago now in March suddenly evergreen announced that they were

[00:14:52] to shut in down the nail you know they've made me think it money they would I think a lot of

[00:14:57] the products were sold to Starbucks for coffee cups and I think for the you know the juice carton

[00:15:05] and so they were doing okay and they just said we're going to shut it down and consolidate

[00:15:11] you know or make more money in other words and so we just let the people behind dry they were

[00:15:16] 1100 people working there and not just in camp and some lot of them live you know when it's around

[00:15:23] the camp. You know Wayne's bill I think. Wayne's for sure even some over in Brooklyn County

[00:15:28] I'm community there so and it had an impact you know and any any industry or you'll know about

[00:15:34] furniture industries it expands beyond simply the people working in the plant and drawing a

[00:15:41] wage you know well first of all they pay taxes in local community if so local government

[00:15:47] then the people spend money and all the people that work there spend money in the local and

[00:15:51] so it supports businesses as well and so there it is now the now the town had experience several

[00:15:59] challenges over in the in the 21st century they had two major floods you know we have COVID too

[00:16:07] and every time a flood came in or every time a challenge like that occurred they just some

[00:16:14] you know people the community all went together and and rebuilt rebuilt the town have people

[00:16:21] clean out their businesses you know people just volunteered you know that in one business they

[00:16:27] said they you know the day after the flood they looked out you know outdoor and there were a bunch

[00:16:31] of people standing out with shovels and rakes to help them you know clean out the mud and muck

[00:16:36] and so forth that had gotten into the building so you know they pulled together as a town

[00:16:43] and and and there's a community and they were helped in the fall of you know the rest and so it was

[00:16:53] you know and that was but in many ways a history of that and it wasn't just recently it was a

[00:17:00] history of how you know people in that community you know pulled together one times or hard

[00:17:07] it for neighbor I was sick and they couldn't you know like let's say bring in their tobacco crop or

[00:17:13] their in a harbester hay then a bunch of them would get together and they'd go over there and

[00:17:20] help them out and so that was very I mean very much you know nature of that of the people there

[00:17:28] and but the mail started oh gosh over a hundred years ago we was built in 1908 by

[00:17:37] by a you know a business man or manufacturer from Ohio Peter Thompson who came down

[00:17:46] and looking for a place to grow and harvest popwood for his paper making and he came up on can and

[00:17:55] then that's you know that's that's you find a lot you know a lot of industries come in

[00:18:00] that they come in to take advantage of the natural resources uh in this case it was uh it was

[00:18:07] spruce trees and uh and it was the river uh there and it was the biggest natural resource I think

[00:18:16] is it's a people there and these are people hard work and you know you grow up on a farm in the mountains

[00:18:24] and that's hard work I mean you have to work uh all day long you know every day just just to make

[00:18:33] it to grow the you know enough to survive and so they were used to working long hour they were

[00:18:40] used to working hard so the you know he took advantage of that too and that's nature of a lot

[00:18:45] of the industries that come in whether it's west Virginia coal mines or it's you know

[00:18:51] uh furniture factories textile mills or binkermail it's the same thing I know and so we we had what he

[00:19:00] wanted and uh so but he was uh he was different than a lot of factory owners that come in and you

[00:19:10] know take advantage of the natural resources he was pretty benevolent much more called benevolent

[00:19:16] employer he built a you know I am CA he had uh you know he got uh you know provided good benefits

[00:19:25] for the employees uh you know health insurance life insurance all that he paid a really good wage

[00:19:33] uh they said that in in depression a lot of people in the area didn't know there was a

[00:19:38] depression but cause he kept them the overrun and so they could work and uh everything and when

[00:19:45] you know what we're two came along he kept the jobs open available for the employees one of

[00:19:53] which was my father and so it you know it it was uh it was a uh you know group from it had a

[00:20:01] tremendous empire on the area you know both getting back I mean the downsellant was the environment

[00:20:10] with pollution you know it's very my paper mills are very polluted in industry is that benign or

[00:20:17] excuse me benevolent leader does that is that like when you mentioned here on page 47 and 48 that

[00:20:24] champion international had taken the company over and practiced a more impersonal style of management

[00:20:31] is that what you're talking about the new the new cutting of the workforce and because

[00:20:36] they said that they come down from 3000 workers to 1650 yes that's what happened and it became

[00:20:42] more part of a larger corporation originally it was owned Peter Thompson his company and his

[00:20:48] son-in-law uh uh uh uh uh was his last name he was uh he he was really managed it and he's the one

[00:20:58] instituted a lot at least policies that uh you know that was you know it's very very uh

[00:21:07] positive policies for the worker and so yeah and then when it was sold to uh champion international

[00:21:18] which is a you know already incorporated in the larger company and so that's when you know they

[00:21:26] they cut back on the workforce i think it was one period they call it black Friday when they

[00:21:31] got a lot of people and so you know they reduced it i think trying to remain from correct maybe

[00:21:37] it was close to 3000 peaked that one employees i mean that's a lot you know when you think about

[00:21:42] they build 40 families and all that stuff so that was a big that was a big change it was you

[00:21:49] mentioned in the text uh uh two of our favorite riders of the late Fred Chapel who was from Ken

[00:21:57] and you also mentioned Ron rash you mentioned the novel serena

[00:22:02] Ron rash has one of his first poetry books is a book of of the textile industry called

[00:22:07] Jerika Mille where his grandfather worked and there's a certain poem in there where they talk

[00:22:13] about the owners ran boats of cloth no one was ever going to buy because they knew

[00:22:19] that kids needed shoes and stomachs needed filling so there was a time in american history where

[00:22:25] business was uh did see employees as assets as something to hold on to and something to keep happy

[00:22:32] to build those YMCA's to build those libraries and things like that to to to help the the employees

[00:22:42] what do you see business like that in being in Canton today do you see what do you see Canton

[00:22:47] turning into uh in in in in 2024 yeah well it's i think they're i think they're already trying to

[00:22:56] make that transition and uh and that you know they with the mill shutting down is there's a I guess

[00:23:05] a positive side to that and the positive side is the pollution is going on and you know there's uh

[00:23:11] I mean the water still did it and the river still get in cleaned up I guess you might say

[00:23:17] but you don't have the smoke stacks you don't have a smell uh which locals call the smell of money

[00:23:23] because they made made a good wage but it was uh you know they so now they're trying to focus more

[00:23:32] upon kind of a tourist kind of you know bringing in people that may have come to you know

[00:23:40] area the smokey mountains or of leeway's mountains and so forth and and people you know they want

[00:23:46] to take advantage of some of the resources there that the pigeon river uh you know a lot of people

[00:23:53] even before the mill came there that a lot of you know a lot of people they would fish in a river

[00:23:58] you know and twat and stuff like that and it's still something that could uh be an industry there

[00:24:04] and as well as you mentioned in the text that the evergreen doesn't plan to tear down the mill

[00:24:10] or do anything they're just going to leave it so do you think that there's some opportunity for

[00:24:14] the redevelopment to turn that into tourist shopping malls or something like that?

[00:24:20] I yeah I'm sure there is and you know I think there are you know those are those are ideas

[00:24:27] of people are entertaining there but at this point it's still the control of evergreen

[00:24:32] and until evergreen decides whether to you know sell the mill or give it to you know the town

[00:24:40] which I don't think they would but but they might uh you know or some other um company or whatever

[00:24:49] buy-end to do this thing that you just suggested in that is you know redevelop it

[00:24:54] and repurpose it into something that you know.

[00:24:57] Doing that one of the books we did with the road hiss um I think they took the old

[00:25:03] redeveloping yeah um the the shell itself is still there and there's possibilities of

[00:25:11] adaptive reuse and the way they're looking at it could be condos and restaurants and indoor

[00:25:17] recreation I mean you never know. No you never know it's I think it's I mean it would be important

[00:25:24] to have something like that either mill you know the field physical structure can maybe

[00:25:30] yarn or do we you know repurpose it? It could it could look unique. How many mills have they

[00:25:36] repurposed around here? Oh quite a few I mean you've got my rats and um uh holler and pickering and

[00:25:43] in the north the blue bell site was changed into uh living space so people are coming up with good

[00:25:49] ways to preserve those buildings and as Dr. Willis said the evergreen would have to decide

[00:25:54] what they want to do because in his text you you write that you know they're not going to tear it

[00:25:59] down but they're not going to sell it. So that does mean that it's just got to be follow there and

[00:26:05] eventually don't make it to see and those follow things have a tendency through entropy to

[00:26:10] hopefully before it falls down yeah yeah yeah yeah yeah yeah yeah yeah yeah you were trying as a

[00:26:15] sociologist how did that affect the way that you rode? It did a lot and you know I thought a little

[00:26:22] bit of sociology of here and that's what it's wonderful about the book. It really is it's a

[00:26:28] memoir plus. It's education? Yes absolutely yeah sorry go ahead. No anyway no it is again

[00:26:36] to impact how you know viewed my life and everything because of course that's a rift written there

[00:26:43] side you know I've been in you know teaching that area for you know 40 years and so forth and

[00:26:49] was educated in that area so it was you know I think it did inform how I look back on my life

[00:26:57] and I've already brought you more like that you know I think helped me anyway to better understand

[00:27:05] what went all on there. If you wouldn't mind towards that end there is a section of the book

[00:27:11] that I had mentioned I think it's kind of pivotal in terms of you choosing to leave the mountains

[00:27:19] and go elsewhere for your education and eventually leave but this part that I've kind of pointed

[00:27:24] out if you don't mind reading for our readers I think they'll understand your transition if you will.

[00:27:29] Okay yes this is in actually and I think in the chapter you've come a long way and that was a

[00:27:38] quote that some of my friends said to me when they came up here in Bez did not town when I dove

[00:27:43] through the area and they looked at I said well as you come a long way and so that's reason for the

[00:27:49] anyway this is a paragraph from that section. When I left Appalachia to pursue my academic career

[00:27:57] I understood how long you were old viewed the one I grew up in it was generally a negative view

[00:28:05] and one that made me more aware of my heritage and a bit embarrassed by it while the world in

[00:28:11] many ways helped to define who I am and provided me with many of the values that I carried with

[00:28:18] me beyond home. I did not really appreciate how much my Appalachian heritage was part of my

[00:28:25] identity my sense of self, my soul. I worked to hide my lack of sophistication it was not just the

[00:28:34] Appalachian world that I wanted to ignore there was also my life growing up and on a farm

[00:28:40] and feeling materially deprived my early years were characterized by lack of indoor plumbing

[00:28:47] and a house rather than a bathroom and by living in an infone animals shoveling manure

[00:28:53] hole in corn and pitching hay that world to find me as a haste a hick a roob I wanted to escape

[00:29:02] and hide that part of me to be accepted into my new world. I now recognize the unique and fascinating

[00:29:09] aspects of Appalachian and its qualities. I just find that to be so universal you know

[00:29:18] I'm African-American writing today. Oh well it's exceptional writing but you know you're telling

[00:29:23] a story of any marginalized community or anybody from a strong ethnic background and their feelings

[00:29:30] like I'm going to leave home I'm a small Chinese child brought up in San Francisco what's it

[00:29:35] like to be outside I'm Hispanic my background is different and I'm going outside I'm African-American

[00:29:42] you're telling another story of a group of people that again I never thought of before

[00:29:48] and you just put it together so well and it's a universal story. Thank you.

[00:29:54] That kind of interstitiality you've got one foot in one culture and one foot in another culture

[00:30:01] and yet you don't feel like you belong. Holy to either one is a common that's a common thing for

[00:30:07] immigration the common thing for folks that are that often fill themselves outside of things

[00:30:13] and I think it's great how you come to terms with that and also how you acknowledge

[00:30:18] that you know the kindness in you the work ethic in you your ability to be patient and never give up

[00:30:25] are those things you learned in Appalachia working in the mountains growing up in the mountains

[00:30:30] and you bring those with you and even though they might call us hicks or grooves or these kind of

[00:30:35] things we do bring those positive things with us into these new worlds and these new worlds and

[00:30:42] these people we deal with benefit from that because you just might teach somebody a little bit of

[00:30:46] patience and a little bit of kindness. That would be great today. That's what we try to do every day

[00:30:56] and one other thing I'd like to point out what's unique about your books. I think this will be

[00:31:02] interesting to our listeners also especially if they're aspiring to write your manuscript was

[00:31:09] submitted maybe two years ago and initially it got a very kind rejection because we do have

[00:31:17] our books go through a beta process and so we had several readers who read it and

[00:31:22] they all agreed that they liked the story there was it was a diamond in the rough they wanted to

[00:31:28] read more but there was there was an element of it that wasn't quite ready and having read their

[00:31:34] comments and me looking it over I very kindly said we like this we need you to work on this. We

[00:31:41] need you to work on this a little bit more and resummit it and to your credit my goodness did you

[00:31:46] do the work on that and we thank you. Yeah wonderful job wonderful job a lot of people who get those

[00:31:52] suggestions and those notes they go away and we never hear from them again but I this is an

[00:31:56] instance that I'm glad that you came back because it's a marvelous book. Thank you thank you so much

[00:32:02] yeah I guess it's part of my hair it's too you don't give up easily and just so you know

[00:32:12] I sent it back to those readers and they were like he got it yeah that's so it's like you did the work

[00:32:18] you know you can't deny that. What are you going to ask him about that process of what he was doing

[00:32:23] for for readers out there are writers out there who might find themselves in the same thing what

[00:32:28] was it they called you not to get rejected and what did you do who did you take it to? Yeah in fact

[00:32:34] what did you do? Right well you know when I got you respond you were you were encouraged and

[00:32:42] but you said there are areas that need you need to work on and you know this is my first book

[00:32:50] right not just my you know it's my first book not just a first book of this kind

[00:32:56] and but I if you look if you work in academia if it's your all do it and you're you do you know

[00:33:03] and and I you know I had to submit stuff it's a you know publisher parish world and you got

[00:33:11] you know you had you had to take that feedback and work with it and you know you did get I mean

[00:33:20] reviewers in these journals can be pretty pretty pretty tough and so you have to be able to

[00:33:30] will and to accept the criticism and work from that criticism and your criticism was very

[00:33:37] constructive enough that you got you got from the readers and so I checked that and I said okay

[00:33:45] I you know I this is encouraging to me and I have some direction what I need to do to make this

[00:33:53] better and and I learned along the way more about writing something a book than I did before

[00:34:02] I mean I was flying blind in many ways you know I had this idea of what I wanted to do in the

[00:34:07] concept or what I wanted to do which is a lot of ways reflected in that passage I read but I

[00:34:14] just I didn't actually didn't know what to do it you know and I had given it to his friend

[00:34:20] among the reading and he made some suggestions and I talked with a couple other people there a

[00:34:26] couple of people that were writers and they made some suggestions true me and so when I got

[00:34:32] your feedback I said well I need I need no I think I need some professional help you might say

[00:34:39] and so I contacted actually Goldleaf Literary Services and they suggested I

[00:34:46] contacted Tom Rache and so I did and I sent him the manuscript and he gave me some feedback

[00:34:57] and you know he had a lot of books fiction and nonfiction in fact he he edited I think he's edited

[00:35:06] you know one rash that his brother's book and books and everything and so he he gave me some

[00:35:13] really good suggestions I've told him to you know send things like syntax you know rephrase

[00:35:21] in something you know that is that is that improved and smoother you know you said you know focus

[00:35:29] on the concrete aspects of you know you know and you can write better if you do that you know

[00:35:37] get down to in a sense write also what you know you know what you experience what you feel

[00:35:44] and so he you know he read that I didn't feedback I made those changes

[00:35:50] and he sent me back to him he made some more of the feedback now I mean he's he you know it just

[00:35:57] you're very he's a tough editor but he's good and so I feel if I made him happy I hope we

[00:36:04] don't make you all say well it like I say when I had a chance to reread it and sent it out to the

[00:36:11] same beta readers we were like okay he nailed it so and it is interesting Tom Rache is actually

[00:36:17] helping another of our hopeful authors I gave him the kind rejection as well and I said you

[00:36:24] know what we like this everyone likes it but not quite ready and he sought out Tom Rache Rache

[00:36:29] and I believe he's going to be helping him as well so that's good relationship there yeah that's

[00:36:33] great that's great recommendation it is and I believe what what we what we were fortunate to get out

[00:36:40] of this this situation was the perfect synthesis of a memoir that educates but but it's part

[00:36:51] of the memoir you know instead of instead of it being you know consciously now I'm going to stop

[00:36:56] here and I'm going to teach you something the education is built into the story of this man who

[00:37:05] grew up as a boy in these towns on these farms in this place but at the same time there's so much

[00:37:12] good cause and effect sociology there's so much good history that that's what I think you're you

[00:37:20] buy a copy of the book you get all three of those things in this book instead of just somebody

[00:37:25] talking about their lives and their relatives and this that the other thing you also get all this

[00:37:30] extra stuff so it's it's kind of a genre in and of itself I believe in that synthesis and as an

[00:37:37] academic I love that and I sensed at a certain point you went through the imposter in postor phase

[00:37:43] of your life you know you knew where you came from you had those insecurities but your your

[00:37:47] degrees were continually uplifting you and then eventually you end up at UNC Wilmington for the

[00:37:54] majority of your academic career teaching and guess what now you're back in the mountains so that's

[00:38:00] the next question Dr. Willis can you go home again and that's meant to be a worse so I am giving

[00:38:07] that back to you but at the same time it's like what is it now that's different that your back

[00:38:11] of your older you've got a difference lens that you look through yeah well you mentioned you

[00:38:17] can't go home again of course people familiar with mountain riders and shouldn't have taught

[00:38:23] much more because that was what he wrote but yeah it's you know you in that sense as you can

[00:38:29] yeah he's right you can't go home again in a sense that you can't go home again and inspect

[00:38:34] everything be exactly what it was when you grew up here things have changed I mean I changed I

[00:38:39] was not the same person in many ways when I came back here you know I've been in over 40 years

[00:38:47] and a different kind of environment and then I came back and you know too and you know in a

[00:38:55] sense you may expect well it's going to be kind like it was and it was it wasn't I mean there

[00:39:00] were a lot of things the same I think a lot of values were still here I think a you know a lot of

[00:39:07] the cultural aspects of the positive aspects are still here the landscape is still beautiful

[00:39:14] fewer farms more vacation homes they're still there the people are basically the same but you

[00:39:25] know in my town change you know the the mill that downsize by the time I came back and everything

[00:39:34] and so you know it's just you know it you can't go when you say you can't go home you can't

[00:39:41] go home again expect everything to be like it was when you left and that's true of any of us you know

[00:39:47] whether you know you're from the northeast or you know well out west or whatever in the west

[00:39:54] you know it's things are gonna change but the core I think they're still there I think the core

[00:40:02] of the people in the community the soul is still there when I go to Jersey I do get out of Jersey

[00:40:07] just as quick but you know what the soul the soul is still there just so I'll say that's enhanced

[00:40:14] the the title of his epilogue I am one of you forever yeah it's your you know no matter what changes

[00:40:21] on the exterior the interior remains uh the same as that as that 12 year old boy that was

[00:40:28] shoveling manure on the farm yeah and went from shoveling manure on the farm to shovel manure I guess

[00:40:36] in the classroom yeah yeah yeah I just want to thank you so much for coming out this has been

[00:40:44] an absolute treasure and joy and and appreciate your you're coming down from Alexander yeah

[00:40:49] my down enjoy being here thanks for inviting me and remember if you want to read this book go to

[00:40:55] RedHawkPublications.com and you can order your own copy and I'm gonna have uh Dr. Willis sign a

[00:41:04] few of our stock copies before he leaves so you just may get an autograph copy if you act now

[00:41:12] so go to the website redhawkpublications.com look around on there you'll find hillbilly obviously

[00:41:18] you can search for it or it's on our new releases or it's on our uh memoir page again thank you

[00:41:26] for coming to see us is anything else you want to come out just to let folks know that when you

[00:41:31] see redpog pod pop up make sure you like share follow and subscribe that's all we ask you to do

[00:41:37] yeah all the other few things yeah and remember not everybody was kung fu fighting I don't care what

[00:41:43] the song says so uh until next time uh red pub pod red pub pod red pub pod

[00:41:54] yay y'all take care and please thank you come here again

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