[00:00:02] What you want, when you want it, where you want it. This is The MESH. Hey everybody, I'm Amy Chang, a nurse, a mom and a health coach, and this is Healthy AF, where honesty and humor and heart meet real talk about feeling good again, inside and out.
[00:00:23] We're cutting through the noise, dropping the guilt, and reminding you, getting healthy isn't about perfection. It's about choosing yourself. One loving decision out of time. Let's get into it. Hey everybody, and welcome to another episode of Healthy AF. My name is Amy Chang, and I'm a health coach here with Healthy Life Health and Wellness Coaching.
[00:00:44] I am thrilled to be back with Michelle Gallagher. She is a bestie, and she's here talking with us about breathwork and in particular, non-D breathwork. If you didn't tune into our last conversation last week, you don't really have to, but it might be a good listen just to give you some context on like, how did we get here talking about breathwork?
[00:01:10] So, rewind the tape, listen to last week, and then pop in. But we're glad you're here at any rate. Hey, thanks for having me back again. I'm excited to be here. Oh, I know. I'm so excited to see you. Okay, so last podcast, you were just about to get into something juicy about non-D breathwork and breathwork in general.
[00:01:30] And I said, no, no, no, we have to make them wait. So, the question I think we ended on was, we saw some athletes in the gym. We started changing the way we coached them. And something happened that was awesome sauce, and we introduced breath.
[00:01:51] And when we introduced breath into their movements, their movement pattern changed, the way they felt in their bodies changed, their performance changed. And so, now we're stuck with this like, huh, breath seems like a little bit magical. Yes. What's this breath thing about? Yes. And we got there. I got there because I was on that path for myself.
[00:02:15] So, everything I feel like I have been teaching to other people is because I have experienced it myself. We have some mentors who are like, this stayed with me because it's like the audacity of me to do something and tell you to do something when I haven't actually done the work myself or experienced it for myself.
[00:02:38] So, that has always stuck with me. When I do something for someone else, it is because I am coming from a place of experience. And not that everyone is going to have my same experience, but I just want to let you know, like, I got some skin in the game on this, and this has changed my life. And anything that changes my life, maybe it might change another person's life. And so, why not share it?
[00:03:02] Yeah. It becomes a service for me. And I was actually having a, I have a business opportunity coming up. This is totally a rabbit hole, but it's my podcast. So, I love having rabbit holes. So, I have this business opportunity coming up. It's kind of like laying around. We're not quite sure what we're going to do yet, but it's about divorce in your midlife. And so, I was talking to my VA, and she's a brand new VA with me. She's been with me for a few months.
[00:03:31] And, you know, I don't, my marriage ended nine years ago, really. I mean, you know, the legal stuff took a while. And then I had another very significant relationship that ended a few handful of years ago. And she didn't know about all this because I don't really talk about it a lot because I'm not her really anymore.
[00:03:53] And it was interesting because she asked me a couple questions. And so, I just laid out this story for her. And I've been on the fence about engaging in this like midlife divorce recovery community. And sometimes I feel like, yeah, you know, I don't really know what I have to say. And after I told her like, yeah, well, it happened to me this way. And this is what it felt like. And this is what I did. And blah, blah, blah.
[00:04:22] She was like, oh, my God, Amy. Do you know how many people you could help? And it does become a, well, it's great that I've lived through it. And I'm glad to be where I am right now. Wouldn't give it up. Yeah. But there, it just seems to be a drive that says, if I got here, somebody else can get here.
[00:04:47] And maybe sharing how I did it can give them even an eighth or a tenth or, I don't know, a hundredth of a tool to make, have them progress a little bit more on their journey, make it a little easier. Yeah. Yeah. So, yeah, when you live through some stuff and you put enough tools in your toolbox, it makes it something you can share with people as a service. Yeah.
[00:05:16] You know, so that's why I have the job I have. I assume that's how you, why you landed into breathing. Yeah. Yeah. It's amazing how those, those pain points become like purpose. And I think that's really, really important to note that I'm not grateful. There's a part of me that's like, I don't, I don't appreciate any of the bad stuff that happened in my life.
[00:05:40] I don't appreciate the grief. I don't appreciate having to go through the hardness of almost like not surviving the hard things. Yep. I don't know.
[00:06:07] I don't know what a smidge in my own way. I can relate to what you're going through. And I think there's something really powerful about that. Yeah. No, I had the same experience this weekend. I was with a group of friends and we were talking and there was a guy that I didn't know. And he was really just suffering. And I could look right across the room and be like, there's Amy Chang four years ago.
[00:06:30] There she is. And she was suffering. And I had people come to me and say, I see you suffer. People I didn't know, you know. And so I did. I went over and I just said, dude, man, I see you. And he just busted.
[00:06:45] It's just something when you make it through to recognize. And it might be different situations, but the pain, the grief. And I have that similar like, would if I were crafting, if I were in charge of my life and I were crafting my life trajectory, would I put this point in there?
[00:07:08] Like even knowing the spot that I'm going to end up, would I put this in there? And I'm like, oh, that's, I don't know that I would ever choose to sign up for some of those pain points. A hundred percent. It is so weird. And yet I am, I can totally recognize I don't get to be here without going through those. Yeah. Yeah. Can't, can't change them. Yeah.
[00:07:36] So, but yeah, I would not have crafted those in. Yeah, man. Yeah. It's rough. It's rough. And the breathing. Yeah. So breathing, we think, you know, I think most of us kind of came, we think about breathing like, okay, like Lamaze class. Yes. Or like when you're getting, you know, that's the thing that your doctor recommends to you before you have your baby is like, go hit a, go hit a breath class.
[00:08:06] Or like a labor class, you know, to kind of educate yourself on that. Or maybe you'll find yourself at a yoga studio and they'll have an event or in a workshop where there'll be some breath work maybe. But like, or, or you're just, you're just like breathing is just something I do automatically. Like, why would I need to think about that? Right. Or it's strictly for performance. I've done that too. Yes. Yes. Like, I did have a trainer one time and I did nasal breathing on the rower.
[00:08:36] And he was like, you have to row to your breath. Oh my God. That's so good for you. And man, that's legit. I know. But it was strictly for performance. I wasn't asking. I wasn't looking. Yeah. For anything else to shift. Yeah. Yeah. Um, like Wim Hof, like I came across his stuff and he's, he's the ice fan. Have you heard of this guy? He's amazing. Oh, okay. Okay. So no Wim Hof, he, I, gosh, when did I come across him?
[00:09:05] I, he holds like all kinds of records for being able to hold his breath underwater in like, he's, I don't know if he's Icelandic. I don't know where he's at. Um, cold water. He's European somewhere, super cold water, holding his breath. They've done studies on him where they have injected him like in a hospital setting, like injected him with like the flu. And he's sitting there breathing in his meditative state.
[00:09:31] And this like flu virus does not do anything to him because of his breath. Like they are studying him. He's won a world records for breath holds and he does like CO2 tolerance training. He's the super like ice man, like do the cold plunges and like, like get your energy. And he's just this super. I'm going to find the link and put that in the show. Oh my God. That is fascinating. I'm so glad we could share about Wim Hof. He's great.
[00:09:59] If anybody wants to have like a deep dive on it, they can go more, but I'm, I'll put an initial link on who this dude is. Yes. Yes. You'll find his videos on YouTube and you'll find documentaries on him. You'll find, but you'll find his breath work and he'll do like three rounds, 30 breaths in and out through the mouth the whole time. So it's like activating breath in through the nose, out through the mouth or in through the mouth and out through the mouth. And you do 30, 30 rounds of that. And then you go for a breath hold and it's his voice coaching you.
[00:10:29] And you hear this kind of like tribal music in the background. And I would actually, one of my earlier virtual personal training clients, her and I, it was really helpful for her to do this style of CO2 tolerance training. And, and not necessarily for like performance optimization.
[00:10:49] It was literally just to help her manage stress and for her to connect to her body and for her to know that like doing something hard, like holding your breath for 30 seconds. It can feel, it can feel like a threat, right? Like it's nervous system training. It's window of tolerance training. You are building your capacity for hard things with breath holds. And so we would do three rounds of that. You would hold your breath for a minute and then a minute 15 and then a minute 30.
[00:11:18] And he has beginner versions. He has more intermediate advanced versions. He has novice versions of all of this, three rounds, 30 breaths with minutes with holds. And it is awesome. And it was when I just have to interject when my back was really bad. I don't know, probably 12, 13, you know, 2012, 2013. I started swimming and I'm still crossfitting. And this is me in my prom.
[00:11:44] I mean, I am stout in the CrossFit gym, right? And I go into the pool and it's a 60 minute master swim class. And for about 40 minutes of that 60 minutes, I'm in panic mode. I shit you not. And I kept having to remind me. And I'm not a bad swimmer. I wouldn't say like I'm a natural born swimmer. I don't know. I'm a pretty decent swimmer. I just don't swim.
[00:12:13] So at any rate, I'm in the pool and I am just completely freaked out and having to remind myself, Amy, you can stop at any time. You can pull up your head and breathe at any time. And I was just doing the regular and they were telling us how to breathe, you know, the on the third stroke or on the second stroke or whatever it was.
[00:12:36] But it literally took me 40 minutes out of a 60 minute class to settle my shit down because my nervous system was so jacked up. And at that time, I only breathed to about, I don't know, my sternum. Yeah. The end of my sternum. I never breathed deeply. Yeah. Woo. That feels like I'm going to die in this pool. Pretty much. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.
[00:13:03] It felt like when you're, well, I guess everybody's been like maybe washed over by the wave or maybe you've taken a deep dive off the diving board and then like coming up, you're like, oh shit, I really need to get to the top. You know, like I really need some air. Yeah. That air hunger that makes you feel panicky. Yes, yes, yes, yes. So it's learning how to build your tolerance for that, to build your tolerance for CO2 buildup inside of your body on those holds.
[00:13:30] And, but it's like, here you are, you're going through it, you know, on YouTube and it's like, so there's parameters, right? There's parameters like, hey, it's not, it's not necessarily about getting to the point where you feel like convulsion or you feel like you're going to pass out. But like, you're noticing the levels of intensity that are building and it's like, okay, well, if you can't hold your breath and don't, then like when you're practicing, breathe it, just, just take the breath, just take a sip or exhale and then inhale and get back in it or whatever. Right.
[00:13:58] So it's like, it's a way for you to engage in something that feels really like kind of life threatening, but it's, it's actually quite safe. So that's, that's amazing. Like, that's so cool that we can experience something like that by just breathing in and out of our nose or mouth or whatever. So I think the first time I breathed, um, I did there were, there was, there's a practitioner in Hickory, um, holistic practitioner.
[00:14:27] And I think at that time I'd, I had herniated my disc and I was going to chiropractic care that was actually beginning to heal my body. And I went into spasm and I stayed in spasm for like four months, just would not come out of spasm. That low back was like, girl, we are in protection mode. And this of course was, was after, um, my marriage had ended, but the finances had not been settled.
[00:14:55] So there was a lot of fear there for me. Um, and, uh, I was trying all kinds of different things to help my back. Um, you know, you'll do just about anything if you're in pain long enough. So, um, I, I started, I started my woo woo journey. And I met a woman who told me about holotropic breathing.
[00:15:21] Now I didn't even, and even, you know, I think the last time we sort of chatted about holotropic breathing as a, as a modality of breath work. Um, one thing I wanted to say to everybody here is that you hear breath work thrown around and it seems like it's this thing, but actually it's so many things and so many different ways to do breathing for purpose. Right. Yep.
[00:15:49] Um, for your personal performance, for your mindset, for your spirituality, for, you know, for the healing, for the release, for, you know, all these different things. And there are so many different ways to do that. So for our purposes today, I think when we talk about breath work, we're talking about the whole shebang, all of that stuff. Yeah. So when I, uh, first tiptoed into that, we did a holotropic breathing session.
[00:16:15] And I mean, it was like a half a day and it was weird and it was, um, fabulous. And it was primarily, and you, you'll know probably what this is called. I don't know what it's called, but it was the, um, in, in, out, in, in, out. Uh, is that fire breath or is that something else? And again, I don't know. Yeah. Okay. There's, there's lots of, there's lots of breathing techniques. And so I, I did that for, I don't even know how long.
[00:16:44] And I went into this kind of, um, meditative slash, um, hallucinogenic kind of space where some things that could, could really let go and, um, and come up. Um, and, um, then we stopped that and we were in a room that was kind of dark and we did have the really loud tribal music going on, which at first I was like, God, this is so dumb.
[00:17:14] No, no. So helpful. And, um, then at the end we like, um, took some time to kind of process and do some artwork. We had some, yeah, I really liked that. I really liked that. And, and then share in the group what came up for us. And I will never forget that first ever, um, breath work I did.
[00:17:42] What came up for me was running through the woods. And I was a woman and I was running through the woods and I felt strong. Hmm. And this was a big shift because, you know, this was a time in my life where like, I really didn't know what my finances were going to be like. I didn't know what my family was going to be like. I didn't know if I was ever going to be married again. I didn't know if I wanted to be married again. I didn't know like where I was going to live, what I was going to do.
[00:18:12] So for me to have that come up for me is like, no, she's in there. And so then I could tap into that when days got harder, like, because it was such a, um, it was almost like a loose, I guess it's a lucid dream that then I could, um, make more tangible for myself. So it was weird and great. And I kept looking for more of that.
[00:18:41] And I did a couple of different of those holotropic kind of events where it's hours long and you're decompressing and you're doing that stuff. And, um, I think that was my first breath work. So what was your first breath work? That's great. Well, that sounds like it was facilitated very well. And I'm really glad to hear that because some people will be curious about breath work. They'll try something and then they'll have an awful experience because they're like, bro, I didn't even know what I got into. We were like being told to breathe. So if you were breathing in, in, out, in through the belly, in through the chest,
[00:19:11] out through the mouth, like conscious connected breathing. That's, that's kind of one of the main, main ones. I should say that the facilitator was trained by Stanislav Grof, I think, who was one of the founders of, um, holotropic, the holotropic breathing method. We'll throw that in the, the show notes too. Amazing. Yeah. Amazing. When you can, it is amazing to Google. Yes. Yeah. And it's important. It's important. You know, I think there's a lot of people that offer a lot of things and just like anything else, you just have to be aware.
[00:19:39] Um, if there's not an, I not like an itinerary, but if you're not fully understanding what you're getting into or what you're signing up for, if you're not fully aware that like, okay, we're going to experience this. We're going to, I'm going to be coached. I'm going to be guided. The room is going to be like this. And then we're going to have an integration time afterwards. We're going to be able to integrate this experience. We're going to be able to paint it out or we're going to be able to like, you know, art or some, yeah, something physical to like express. Yes. Um, that is incredible.
[00:20:09] That's amazing. And that's something that you should look for. Um, because it's such a bummer when your curiosity is peaked, you are put your brave girl panties on, you sign up for something. And then you're like, I just, I had a horrible experience. I didn't know what I was feeling. I thought I was dying. I thought I was having a heart attack. And when you don't know what your body's doing, if you're not prepared to understand what's happening inside of your body, that somatic experience or the releasing that your body's actually going through, it's very science.
[00:20:39] It's very like, I can explain why your hands cramp up. I can explain why you're feeling like, yes, yes. Why you're like feeling like there's lightning bolts and electricity running through your body or why you're feeling like your body is like working. So, and I want to say here too, that a lot of us, when we first do that breath work, we've been so disconnected from our body that we don't have any trust for our bodies. A hundred percent. So we don't know that what she's doing down there is actually okay.
[00:21:09] And that we're safe. Yep. And so without having that, um, going in and I will say that, uh, mine pre she prepped us like, you may feel this, you may feel that we talked about some things that we wanted to get out of it. We talked about what was kind of happening in our life. I mean, we really just like, it's like you start massaging that and then you go into your work and then like you said, integrating it out. So I wasn't aware that that was a real thing.
[00:21:37] I thought it was just my own personal experience, but apparently that's important. It's so important. Yeah. And there's like a container of safety that needs to happen. You know, there needs to be an environment in which you feel like you feel safe enough to even share a little bit of your personal life or, and just let down because you're scanning the room. You're walking into a space that maybe you've never been in before. And what if the space makes you feel uncomfortable? Oh yeah. Then your brain's like, I don't know. You know, you're constantly searching for safety. Am I safe here? Is this person safe? Is this person weird? Is this part, do I trust this person?
[00:22:07] So that's hugely important for you to feel like the container is safe for you to feel like the facilitator is safe. Um, you're, you're safe in your body. You're safe in your body. And it's all things that your nervous system is constantly scanning for. We don't, we do it all. Our bodies are doing this all the time. We just don't realize that that's what's happening. We're like, Oh, I got a bad vibe about this place. And it's like, or, Oh, I don't, I don't know, you know, but it's, it's not that we can't ever experience that, or I'm never going to put myself in that situation ever again. That's not even real life.
[00:22:38] So being able to find these moments of going and you're essentially healing with people, you know, which feels fricking vulnerable sometimes. Oh yeah. Because you're like, people aren't safe. I have been so lucky, um, to have been in so much pain that like, it was real easy for me to be vulnerable because I'm like, I got, I got it. Something has to change. Yeah. Yeah.
[00:23:04] So I've, I've actually, I'm grateful for the, um, the pain because you couldn't have stopped me from doing something, anything. Let's just, let's just shift up out of here. Yeah. That's honest. Okay. So your first breath work experience, I know that we both experienced in the, you know, workout space in the, like how we actually move, how we actually feel, how we stay with our bodies when they're doing hard stuff.
[00:23:29] What was, what was your first like straight up breathing in a group? Yeah. Yeah. So I came across 90 breath work. I kind of heard about it a little bit, but I was like looking on the website and looking at all the things and there was this link to be able to join Brian Kelly, who's one of the founders of 90 breath work. And a lot of, uh, the recordings, a lot of the journeys are his voice. And so you're listening, I'm listening to him and I'm like kind of reading everything
[00:23:57] on the, on the website. And it's like, join me for this 90 breath work experience. And the theme of this journey is called letting go. So I was like, Ooh, okay. Like, all right, let's, uh, give this a go. Shall we? Cause I was like, I've got a dump back there. I'd like, yeah, excuse me. Excuse me. Wait, I got a donation for you. A hundred percent. I was like, uh, okay, well that resonates with me. I feel like I can let go of some stuff.
[00:24:27] So I was like, okay. So there was a lot, there was a lot of different types. There is a lot of different type of breath work certifications, trainings, ways in which you can go, you can go the more nerdy athletic route and like optimize like sports performance. And you can do like Lamaze and like doula and all kinds of like for women who are, yeah. Like you can, so there's like all kinds of breath work for all kinds of things. Um, there's the more spiritual based aspect where people are coming in and they're like
[00:24:56] dealing with like, they're dealing with all kinds of stuff. And so there's, there's so much breath work out there. And so there's so much breath work training out there. And so 90 came across my, my website, my computer screen. I decided to sign up for the 75 minute. I think it was about 75 minutes letting go journey. Now this was going to, it was going to be live, but it was in Bali time, which was going to be like two, 3am in my time of the world. And I was like, Ooh, that's not going to work.
[00:25:23] But I got the recording, the live journey that was happening. Everybody was jumping on zoom call. I just got the recording in my inbox. So the next day I play it. So it's me with myself and my laptop, with my headset in my room, laying down on my, on my bed and being guided, being coached because you're getting vocal. You're getting a layer of vocal cues and coaching.
[00:25:49] You're getting kind of this cinematic, like you were saying how the drums that you were feeling or hearing, like there's music being played. There's binaural beats being played. There's frequencies. It's tuned to 432 Hertz, which is like the frequency of nature. Um, there's all of these like nerdy technical things that are being inner layered on top of each other in the recording.
[00:26:17] And so I push play, I put my little headset on, I put my little eye mask on and I breathe for 75 minutes in a conscious connected breathing. So in through the belly, into the chest and let it go. And after that 75 minute journey, there was a big buildup. I kind of liken it to, um, like a CrossFit gym or a CrossFit class where you're going to like start starting easy and you're good. And so like the journey starts like easy and then it kind of ramps up a little bit. You get your warmup and then you kind of starts ramping up again.
[00:26:47] And it ramps up into this like big cathartic, like breath hold and then like scream release. And so I knew that was, I knew it was going to be powerful. So I was like doing it when my husband was at work and like my kid was in school and, um, I was here by myself and my dog was with me. Like my dog, my one dog who's like with me, she's like right there. And so like, I scream release and then it's like down regulation and then it's integration
[00:27:12] and it's all these beautiful, uh, visual guided meditative, like prompts of like, um, like visualize like a golden bubble and then sip that bubble full of gratitude into your body. Hold onto it. Notice how it feels all these like beautiful, like cinematic things. And then your brain, like your body is like filling in the pictures of what you're supposed
[00:27:38] to be like, what you're visualizing and what they're saying, like, imagine yourself walking through this forest or whatever. And it's, it's just, your brain just kind of fills it all in at the end of it. I was like, what just happened? Like I feel different. Yes. That scream release. I had never done anything like that in my life. I'm pretty sure. I don't know if I, I screamed hard.
[00:28:06] I can't remember if I just let myself do it or even in a room by myself in my house. I would, I don't know if I was screaming into a pillow or if I just let it out in my room, but I screamed as hard as I can. And when I stopped screaming, I started sobbing and it was, it was all of this like tingling sensations over my body. Like I had never experienced my body doing the things that it was able to do, which now I know it was processing a lot of emotions.
[00:28:35] It was processing a lot of stuck energy. My body felt so incredibly calm and peaceful at the end of it. And I carried that through for days afterwards where I'm like, okay, this is, this, this is how I want to, like, it changed me. It changed me. And I was, I had never experienced breath before in that way. And so I was like, I found, I found what I want to share. I want to do this for myself. I want to do this for other people.
[00:29:04] So that, that is 90 breath work. And it's so cool and unique and different. And I do in person and I do virtual and it's the amazing capability of, of like, we, you know, I'm not, I'm not going to like explain like, okay, binaural beats. Like we all know that these things exist. Like binaural beats can be really good for, you know, you have like on Spotify, you have like ADHD playlists, right?
[00:29:31] You have like binaural, sleep ones, focus, stress management. Um, they're all tuned to different frequencies. And this is like, we're also things that feel really woo woo come into the space. So like sound baths, if you've ever experienced a sound bath, crystal singing bowls, basically just percussion instruments. Okay. That's what we're talking about. We're talking about like gongs, crystal bowls, rain sticks, chimes, things, frequencies
[00:30:00] are very, um, sense, like our bodies are sensitive. Yeah. I used to go to a, um, well, I still go to this specific Reiki practitioner. She's a buddy of mine. And, um, during more difficult times, she would take one of those bells, you know, the hang on the strings. I got the two bells and then they got the stick and you whack them. Yep.
[00:30:24] Um, she'd just take that bell above my back and whack it and my entire back would like clamp down and then it would release after we like let it. But if a sound can make my body do that while I'm just laying there. Mm-hmm. Okay. So, um, I want us to wrap right there. Okay.
[00:30:50] Um, because I'm really feeling like there also needs to be something else said and it's a longer conversation. And it's about how people can get started on breath work, why they would get started on breath work. I mean, I, you know, Michelle, when you put up that you were doing breath work, as you recall, I'm sure you do, that I was like immediately in your DMs going like, when are you doing that online? Yeah. And you were like, not yet girl.
[00:31:20] And I'm like, bitch, please. It's real. It's real. Help a sister out. Come on. So, um, you've got some stuff coming up and I want to talk about those things. And I want to talk about the difference between having a guided breath works, um, session versus like a unguided, not unfacilitated, but unguided.
[00:31:42] Um, and I just want to, I want to talk a little bit more about how you bring yourself into the space as a facilitator. Amazing. I would love to do that. Good. Okay. Well, let's do that. And we will, um, share that with you guys next week. So make sure that if you have loved this, you click on all the links and, um, then tune
[00:32:09] in next week when we really get down to brass tacks. All right. Bye friend. I'll see you next week. See ya. Bye. Thanks for hanging out with me today on healthy AF. I hope something you heard helps you take one small kind step toward your healthiest self. If you love this episode, hit subscribe. So you never miss a conversation. And if you want more support, head over to my healthy life.coach to connect with me.
[00:32:40] Remember, you don't have to do it perfectly. You just have to start choosing you. See you next time. You've been listening to The Mesh, an online media network of shows and programs ranging from business to arts, sports to entertainment, music to community.
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