All of Life Is a Pilgrimage: A Conversation with Karla Woggon

[00:00:02] What you want, when you want it, where you want it. This is The MESH. Hey everybody, I'm Amy Chang, a nurse, a mom and a health coach, and this is Healthy AF, where honesty and humor and heart meet real talk about feeling good again, inside and out.

[00:00:23] We're cutting through the noise, dropping the guilt, and reminding you, getting healthy isn't about perfection. It's about choosing yourself. One loving decision at a time. Let's get into it. Hey everybody, and welcome to another episode of Healthy AF. My name is Amy Chang, and I am a health coach here with Healthy Life Health and Wellness Coaching. I am so delighted. Welcome to June, and welcome Karla Wogan.

[00:00:49] We have my friend Karla Wogan here with us today, and we are talking about all things pilgrimages and our trip just coming back from the Camino de Santiago. So welcome Karla. Thank you, Amy. It's great to be here. It's my first podcast. I know, me too. This week. This week, okay. Yeah. So let's see how to start this podcast. Why don't we start here? This is where I start basically every month.

[00:01:16] Why is it important to talk about my personal trip, my personal experience, your experience as a reverend, retired reverend in the Episcopal Church, leading people in spiritual journeys, particularly ones that happen inside nature. Yeah. Why is that important for other people to hear about?

[00:01:42] Well, because I coach people about their health all the time, and this is a really big part that can move you forward and also not help you if you don't dial into it purposefully. Yeah. And for me, too, as a normal old middle-aged lady who thinks about doing a pilgrimage, it's sort of off the wall for me.

[00:02:07] I didn't know anything about the Camino until a couple years ago when a group from the church went. And that sounded cool. I didn't really know what I was getting into. Yeah. Didn't really care. And then when my good friend Karla, that was you, said that you were going to take a Camino trip, I was like, yes, please.

[00:02:28] So I guess all things, that's how it applies and why I would want to do a podcast on that. Is there anything you can think of that kind of like, oh, yeah, it would be really handy for people to actually have some understanding of this?

[00:02:42] Well, I think a pilgrimage can lead to transformation. So it's worth talking about. Because I actually see all of life as a pilgrimage these days. After I did four or five pilgrimages on my own, and then I led eight or nine pilgrimages, I realized that all of life is a pilgrimage.

[00:03:00] And when I think about my life as a pilgrimage, then it really helps me deal with lots of minor inconveniences. Like I was late on my way here. And I thought, sometimes things are out of your control, which is we all know that but a pilgrimage teaches you that in a deeper way. And when I can remember that, then it lets me be less angry all the time and less frustrated because a lot of life is out of my control. And it's when I try to control things I don't actually have control over that I get really frustrated.

[00:03:28] Yeah, that's part of what I learned on a pilgrimage. Yeah. In fact, we learned that quite a few times on our pilgrimage. We did. I mean, whether you want to learn that lesson or not, you learn it just like you learn it in life. Yeah. So yeah, that's what's powerful about it. Yeah. Gosh, that's such a great way. You know, I was just saying to a friend, a neighbor, actually in the hood before I came up today, that you purposefully put yourself in this spiritual bubble.

[00:03:56] And then all the little normal things that happen in your life like traffic happen, but you're looking at it through a spiritual lens with 14 other people who are also looking at it through a spiritual lens. And the importance and the weight of traffic all of a sudden becomes like zero. Yeah.

[00:04:22] Yeah. And yeah. Okay. So one thing that's been exceedingly difficult for me is reentry. Yeah, that's hard. Yeah. Yeah. Okay. So you've done more of these than I have. Can you just like so that people will know what's available and kind of what all this encompasses? You've done four or five. What were they? Where'd you go? Fill us in. Right. Let eight or nine.

[00:04:52] So, I mean, again, I do see all of life as a pilgrimage now, but the first one I intentionally took where I thought about it as a pilgrimage was when I went with my husband and two grown up step kids to hike the John Muir Trail. So we went from Yosemite National Park to Mount Whitney for 25 days backpacking in the wilderness. And so it was a journey and I prepared for it for a year.

[00:05:18] And then I realized how much I love being on that journey and the transformation that takes place inside of myself and what it did for our family was really powerful. And I just loved being outside that much. Can you give us one specific little thing that transformed like a before we did the John Muir Trail, blah, blah, bleep. And after it feels like this. Well, there was something spiritually broken inside of me that I don't know that I could have put a name to.

[00:05:46] It just was something was empty. Even though I've spent my adult life as an Episcopal priest and my spiritual journey has been a big part of my life. There was still something that felt broken. And there was this moment on the John Muir Trail where we were walking. It was the first time we made a really big ascent. And we were walking through this valley and it was just empty wilderness. And the wilderness out west is very different than our wilderness here, right? So we got all the trees and we're all cozy, like a big warm hug.

[00:06:16] And out there the mountains are huge and there's just this indifference about the wilderness that was surprisingly holy to me. Like I was really small, but I felt really a part of it in some way. I still don't have words for. And as I walked through that valley, it felt like I was walking through the body of God and something inside of me just was knit back together that was broken. And yeah, so that was one thing of many, many, many that happened.

[00:06:44] And so when I got back, I wanted to figure out a way to keep doing this. And so then I've led others, which I can talk about if you want to know about them. Oh, yeah. I would love to know about that. You said that there was something that was just sort of broken and you couldn't put your name on it. Yeah. And then during that walk, I think one of our favorite people, Brene Brown, says in her book Atlas of the Heart, that sounds to me like awe. Oh, for sure. Awe. Yeah. Awe and wonder. Yeah.

[00:07:12] It's that being connected, but being a tiny little part of a vast something. And was there some gratitude in there or no? Oh, sure. I mean, gratitude for the beauty of the world. Gratitude that I had the opportunity to go on this experience. Gratitude that I was here with my family. Gratitude that my legs were getting me up this mountain. Please. Yes. Because I didn't really exercise until I was 40. And so this has been a second half of life journey for me.

[00:07:42] And that I was able, again, that was the first descent. And I don't know how, it was big. It was long. It was really hard. And my stepdaughter is at the top cheering me. I'm like, you can't cheer. I have to do this on my own. And they're like, okay, we got it. No cheering. And I did it. And then there were 25 days of ascents after that. But yeah. So the gratitude that I could do it. I mean, as we hiked all day long, I kept saying, thank you feet for letting me walk. Thank you legs for walking. Thank you lungs for breathing.

[00:08:12] Because it also kept my mind, which is actually something else that happens on a pilgrimage. It can be boring at times, right? We live in a world where we are connected. And you have a second. Nothing against a podcast. But most of us get a second and we turn on a podcast. Because it's hard to be alone in your brain. And just let come up what's going to come up. Yeah. It can be a bad neighborhood in there. It can be. Especially an untrained brain. Yeah. My brain for most of my life was very untrained. Yeah. So she did whatever she wanted to do and said whatever she wanted to say.

[00:08:42] And I believed her. And that was not a good spot for me to be in. So yeah. So sometimes when I'm walking instead of when the negative voices can come that aren't particularly helpful, then I do do the gratitude. Thanks feet. You're going. Good job. I'm so proud of you, little feet. Oh, look at your little legs. You're doing such a good job. Oh, lungs. I'm so proud of you too. And heart and brain and all of it. All of it. So it does feel good to just love on yourself for a while while you're walking. It does feel good to love on yourself. That in itself. Geez.

[00:09:11] If for most of my life I'd had that. Yeah. And or for my clients, if they have that, then we're cooking with gas all of a sudden. Right. You know, and things get real easy. Yeah. Which is part of why I love to be about outside. What I love about outside is that it's vast. And that was on the John Muir Trail. It was vast wilderness. And we were just walking on the Camino and the route I chose was the Portugal route because it goes by the sea. Because I love to walk by the ocean.

[00:09:42] I've also done some kayaking pilgrimages. And when you're on a tiny little kayak and you just know there's just so much vastness of water underneath you that you can't even imagine. I mean, I can't imagine exactly how deep that is. And then I think, well, maybe that's God's love. Like that much love. Like, and it's so concrete that I can think about it in a different way than just sort of thinking of what unconditional love might be. You know, unconditional love is this ocean.

[00:10:10] And it's, I'm small and it's big and I'm never going to get to the bottom of it. And like if we can love ourselves like that. Wow. Yeah. Yeah. Oh, I love that. How like some concept that only lives in the images in our minds then became concrete for you. Right. Yeah. And that's also part of what I love about a pilgrimage is that it makes these somewhat abstract concepts concrete. And I'm an experiential learner and a concrete learner.

[00:10:36] So sometimes I just got to take my body through something before I can really get it. Hmm. And I know that we've talked since our pilgrimage that the body remembers. Yeah. Yeah. And we'll have to share that story on another episode. Okay. Since we have all of June. I'm so excited. Okay. Yeah. But yeah. Yeah. Body remembers good and bad. Oh, yeah, they do. Yeah. And I think process is the way that we help them direct that processing.

[00:11:04] You know, I think our mindset has a lot to do with how our body processes those memories. Yeah. You know? Yeah. Okay. So I totally got off track. I'm sorry. Sorry. We did. We're going to wander down so many rows. So podcast world, we're squirrels over here. I know. I know. And sometimes, FYI, sometimes on this podcast, we just go silent because, I don't know, something gets said that's so profound that needs to sit a minute.

[00:11:34] Or maybe it's that I'm about to start crying and I need to pull it together because podcast is about talking. Okay. So let's rewind the tape. Okay. And go. You went down. You did the John Muir trail. Yeah. And then what happened? And then what happened? So I came back and I said, wow, I'd love this. And a friend of mine, a colleague had just written a book called, what's the name of this book? Silence. The Wisdom.

[00:12:05] Wisdom Walking. Okay. About his experience walking in Ireland on a pilgrimage when he turned 60. And so I read it and it helped put language to some of the experience that I had had while walking. And so I really wanted to continue to find ways to do this. So the next one I did, I took a group of teenagers at the church I was serving at the time.

[00:12:27] We went out west to spend some time with some folks in the Hopi nation and the Zuni nation and the Navajos. And we had the opportunity to actually camp on the land of a Hopi glassmaker. And that was just phenomenal. And then we were privileged to go down into Canyon de Chez, which you normally don't go

[00:12:53] down into, but we had a Navajo host to let us be on his property, on his land. And so we were there for two days. And the depth of silence that happens in the wilderness, in the desert is incredible. We don't really get silence like that here in our wilderness, because unless you're in the midwinter and then it's cold, because the crickets go and they chirp and the birds and the frogs and everybody makes a lot of beautiful sound. And in the desert, it is a deep quiet. And the stars are incredible.

[00:13:21] Having grown up on the East Coast, I'd never seen stars like that. And I was lying on the ground looking up and I was like, oh, look at those clouds way up high. And someone said, that's the Milky Way. And I was like, oh, that's why it's called the Milky Way. I get it now. Yeah. Yeah. So, you know, and it was hard. We had arguments with the kids and it was hard for the kids, but all of it became part of the learning. And so then a group of adults wanted to go from the church. So then I took them a couple months later.

[00:13:48] And then I've led groups on pilgrimages to the Holy Land twice and cathedrals in France and to Iona in Scotland and a walking trip in Wales. And then the Camino. So when you do, when you say I've led people on pilgrimages, are those walking pilgrimages too? Or is it just the walking ones? Tell me about that. So I've done both, both walking pilgrimages.

[00:14:15] And so the one out west, we didn't really walk. I mean, we, big, broad areas. We took buses from place to place. We walked some when we were camping. So a pilgrimage doesn't have to be walking. It can be or it can be just the journey from one place to another. For me, part of what makes a pilgrimage pilgrimage is the intentionality that you bring to it. So if you bring to it that you're moving through space with the intention of deepening your

[00:14:44] purpose and your understanding of who you are while also being open to the unexpected, then that makes it a pilgrimage. I remember. So you did the Zoom meetings with the group of us before we went. Yeah. And you also did some individual meetings with us. And I missed our last Zoom meeting. I think I zoned out. I just totally missed it. I was like, oh, dang. I'm sorry. I missed it. And then we had our meeting.

[00:15:11] And you were like, so what's your intention for this trip? And even though like two years ago when I had heard other people from my church talk about their experience, I was like, I want that. I want to have the spiritual time. I want to. When you and I chatted, fast forward two years. Yeah.

[00:15:31] And, you know, we're coming up June 7th, 2026 will be one year since my mom fell and got her concussion and sent us on a year long pilgrimage through. For sure. Absolutely. Yes. 100 percent. The Alzheimer's diagnosis, the heart disease, you know, like everything you can imagine and

[00:15:59] the move and the retiring and all the grief and all the just jacked up cortisol level, you know, and talk about trying to control stuff you can't control. Like it has been it's been a challenge. And so when we had our meeting, then I had gone from like, oh, I want to have a spiritual experience. Like, I want to get out of here. I don't want to take care of my dog. I don't want to take care of my mom. I don't want to take care of my kids. I don't want to take care of my business. I don't want to have to fix my meals.

[00:16:25] I just need to like get out of my life for a minute. And then I think we probably had that conversation maybe a month before we left. And I loved it that you were like, OK, that's OK. You know, that is OK. Yeah.

[00:16:47] And within a month, like right before we left, it did shift to like, no, I actually am here because I feel like I'm doing my spiritual practices, but they may have become more of a checklist than creating the space that I want to have.

[00:17:12] And actually, I podcast all of, I think, April on spirituality. And I had a really great metaphor. I was like, you know, if you love CrossFit and you CrossFit every single day, that's awesome. But if you throw in a competition every once in a while, it gives you something to like just immerse yourself in and like really dive in and really learn some new things about yourself, maybe new moves you can't do or maybe new moves you can do that you didn't think, you know.

[00:17:40] And so I equate like, you know, if we don't take time to kind of immerse in that spirituality, then we might be missing an opportunity to stir up or stoke up where our spirituality lies in our lives. So can I ask you a question? Yeah, absolutely. So after going, you had your intention two years ago. You had your intention a month before. What emerged for you? What was the experience?

[00:18:09] Was it what you planned or something different or a little bit of both? Okay. I am going to pin us right there. We're going to answer that question next week. Okay. Because that's a very long answer. It is a long answer. So let's wrap up that right there. For y'all listening, I want you to maybe take a minute and think, if you look at your spiritual

[00:18:38] life right now, and you look at what you would want to happen, what you would hope to transform, if you put yourself into that spiritual bubble for a couple of weeks, rolled around, marinated, be with other fellow pilgrims who are also looking at their spiritual bubble. What would you want out of that? What would your intention be?

[00:19:01] And we'll continue talking about what my intention was and actually what happened next week. So we will see you then. Give yourself some grace and tune in for next week on Healthy AF. Thanks for hanging out with me today on Healthy AF. I hope something you heard helps you take one small, kind step toward your healthiest self. If you love this episode, hit subscribe so you never miss a conversation.

[00:19:31] And if you want more support, head over to myhealthylife.coach to connect with me. Remember, you don't have to do it perfectly. You just have to start choosing you. See you next time. You've been listening to The Mesh, an online media network of shows and programs ranging from business to arts,

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