Episode 108: The Power of Resistance with Dr. Cindy Urbanski

[00:00:00] What you want, when you want it, where you want it. This is The MESH.

[00:00:11] We talk a lot on this podcast about ways that maybe we don't fit into traditional, social

[00:00:18] and cultural settings, one of them being school. In today's episode of The Written Compass,

[00:00:23] I have the immense pleasure of having good friend, long time colleague and fellow writing

[00:00:30] coach Dr. Cindy Irbanski who's going to talk to us about her new books, Getting Schooled

[00:00:35] on Resistance. And in our conversation we talk everything from why maybe students don't

[00:00:42] feel like they fit into school and maybe you have that story or you know people who've

[00:00:46] had that story. And what it might feel like to repurpose, reimagine the writing that

[00:00:53] you've already done, this is a powerful story and I'm super excited to hear so let's

[00:00:57] dive in.

[00:01:01] Hello everyone and welcome to another episode of The Written Compass. I am super excited

[00:01:06] today because I've got my writing bestie here with me and we're going to be talking

[00:01:12] about lots of different things but most importantly we are going to be leaning into and talking

[00:01:18] about her amazing new-ish, new version of a book she has previously published. I'm super

[00:01:27] excited to introduce and welcome Dr. Cindy Irbanski. Hey, hello. So Cindy and I have

[00:01:36] a long, long history we met at an summer institute of the National Writing Project which

[00:01:46] Cindy and I have been involved in over the years in various ways and we met at University

[00:01:51] of North Carolina Charlotte for that particular course and program and we instantly connected

[00:01:59] and have just been working together and friends ever since. And we both have similar backgrounds

[00:02:06] we went through the same PhD program and we both love writing and talking about writing

[00:02:14] and writing about writing and other things and we work together now to support our writers.

[00:02:20] Cindy is our lead writing coach and Synergy Publishing Group and so we basically talk

[00:02:25] every day and talk about all the things in life and in writing so I'm super excited to

[00:02:31] have you here today and Cindy I'm excited to talk about your process for getting schooled

[00:02:39] and resistant so I want you to start with a little bit of how did this book because it's

[00:02:46] new or but not brand new kind of come to be so tell us the story a little bit. So this

[00:02:53] book started as my dissertation and I fell in love with it as I was writing my dissertation

[00:03:03] because I was lucky enough to have little Brandon as my chair and all liberty jibbit about

[00:03:12] I don't write research narratives blah blah blah and she told me I was a storyteller.

[00:03:19] I had always been a storyteller in waived her magic permission wand for me to use my storytelling

[00:03:26] powers in my dissertation and so it was not dissertation E when I wrote it and then it became

[00:03:37] even more of an narrative when I published it under the title Uncangling Urban Middle School Reform

[00:03:45] in 2017 and it was either 2016 or 2017. It's been a hot minute. However

[00:04:02] it is an narrative it is stories of us schools one particular school an urban middle school

[00:04:12] but it is also the story of school and the story of students in schools and teachers in schools

[00:04:20] and administrators in schools and so what I had the privilege to do was collect all these beautiful

[00:04:28] powerful stories and put them out into the world. So I don't see these at this as my story

[00:04:37] by any stretch of the imagination. This is the story of students in a large urban school district

[00:04:46] that were marked good or bad and teachers that were marked good or bad and administrators that

[00:04:56] were marked good or bad and what I'm what I'm critiquing is that moniker because the good

[00:05:05] students teachers administrators did as they were told and the bad y'all can't see my quoting

[00:05:12] fingers but I've gotten going all over the place here. The bad ones busted right on out of the box

[00:05:20] and set it on fire and it was just so telling that and now all these years later I'm still in touch

[00:05:32] with all these people and they are doing wonderful amazing things out in the world because they were

[00:05:39] the bad student, bad teacher, bad administrator. So that is the story and then the book didn't do really

[00:05:49] well. I didn't do a lot of marketing. I didn't know I was supposed to do a lot of marketing, it was

[00:05:55] traditionally published somehow I missed that memo and then the pandemic happened and I was rereading

[00:06:07] the book last summer and was like wow this is really current. This is what we're talking about now

[00:06:14] because we've gone from scripted programs and worksheets to Chromebooks with scripted programs.

[00:06:24] It's the same stuff just more expensive and the students who are in trouble with their Chromebooks

[00:06:35] are off on the side creating some magnificent something that in my opinion they should be getting

[00:06:47] kudos for because they're done with whatever scripted assignment they've been given through the big

[00:06:55] conglomerate that has said this is the thing you're supposed to learn. So they get outside of the

[00:07:01] box and then they're in trouble. So it's the same story just with more blinky lights.

[00:07:09] Great, yeah. Oh my goodness so many things. So I'm my writing coach hat is on and so I just want to go

[00:07:18] back and first for people who for whatever reason maybe don't know when you're earning a PhD part of

[00:07:28] that process is typically some sort of really big research project, a dissertation it is often

[00:07:35] called especially in the field of humanities which Cindy and I both did and you kind of have

[00:07:41] some options on what kind of data and what kind of research you do. Cindy is describing what we

[00:07:48] call qualitative data and I've actually talked about that on this podcast before and the reason

[00:07:54] just as Cindy said is because it is a very storytelling it's from the humans their words,

[00:08:01] their what we observe of them and retelling and sharing of that story and looking for themes

[00:08:08] and patterns. So you're hearing Cindy kind of disseminate all of that and then the power of a

[00:08:14] dissertation the the idea is that you're vetted and you show you can step into this world of academia

[00:08:21] right and present this kind of coherent body of work at dissertation does get published typically

[00:08:28] it's just in a library kind of setting but you can go on and find my dissertation and Cindy's

[00:08:34] dissertation they're accessible and so a lot of people do in academia will kind of dive into this

[00:08:41] a little bit more here in a sec but one of the next things is a part of being a university professor

[00:08:47] is you do need to publish and that is typically in what is Dean what is called traditional publishing

[00:08:53] and we've talked about that on this podcast as well meaning there's some outside body whether it's

[00:08:59] a journal or a publisher your publishing company that looks at your work looks at your writing and

[00:09:06] says yeah we we think this has legs we think this is worthwhile it kind of gets a stamp and then

[00:09:12] it heads into whatever publication process so Cindy took on that put herself out there with

[00:09:19] her dissertation and it got accepted from a traditional publisher she went through the process of

[00:09:26] you know usually you get assigned an editor of some sorts you make any small changes that might

[00:09:31] be needed in order for it to go from dissertation to book um and then it goes out into the world

[00:09:38] cover all of that the same process that we we support our clients in as they're self publishing

[00:09:43] it's the same process it's just done through a different setup the thing is that's I think

[00:09:51] is so interesting with Cindy is this these stories and this this dissemination and understanding

[00:09:59] of all students receiving what they need in a classroom setting is as Cindy said like not new

[00:10:08] it's something that I think is more imperative than ever and so I love how Cindy you're talking about

[00:10:15] the story never left you these stories these these stories of these schools of these kids never left you

[00:10:21] and this is an important body of work and you could have said well I published it traditionally

[00:10:29] it didn't really sell I didn't know I was supposed to market they didn't really you know like there

[00:10:33] wasn't a lot that happened with the book in terms of sales and it getting out there and all that kind

[00:10:38] of stuff what talk about like what made you feel comfortable or like the process of then going

[00:10:48] hey because Cindy basically took the book back and it is now self published new title new cover

[00:10:56] all the things so talk to us about that process a little bit because it's something we've really

[00:11:01] been having a lot of conversations about around traditional publishing and around especially in

[00:11:07] like higher ed and academia where that is the way publisher perish right and like well what does

[00:11:12] publish mean um so talk to us a little bit about that process so it just hit me and on a retreat

[00:11:23] with Shayna in September sitting on the late talking about books that this book is important

[00:11:33] and the stories of these students and of these teachers and of these administrators are important

[00:11:40] and it was imperative for me as a researcher and a writer to get these stories in front of people

[00:11:53] and the only way I could see to do that I wrote the publisher and asked if we could have a new

[00:12:00] marketing push what could I do and so I said well can I have it back

[00:12:09] and do it myself and um there was some back and forth on that and a lot of paperwork and a lot

[00:12:15] of legal stuff but I did get it back and eventually and so my reason for

[00:12:26] getting the rights back for me what the reason was to get it out into the world

[00:12:33] under what I see is the correct title because one of the things that happens in traditional publishing

[00:12:39] is they say not this but this not this but this you don't have as much control yeah

[00:12:45] traditionally it's not your book at that point i mean it's your words your name is on it

[00:12:52] but they own the rights just to remind everyone when you tradition language they own the rights of

[00:12:56] the book so if they want to change the title they get to change the title and you can push back

[00:13:01] and i have pushed back um but anyway so it's not a book about middle school that was the first thing

[00:13:08] that came to me that the problem the reason people aren't reading this book is that it's not

[00:13:15] a book about middle school and middle school is right there in the title the case study happens

[00:13:20] in the middle school that is a book about students children in schools in the United States now K-12

[00:13:29] yeah and it's not a research book and the title was very researchy

[00:13:39] and so anyone who is more of a story and so people looked at the title and thought well this

[00:13:45] is for graduate students only who are interested in activity theory and critical discourse analysis

[00:13:53] and this is not that so i wanted to remarket it in a way to get it in more hands the hands of

[00:14:00] policy makers the hands of pre-service teachers but also the hands of parents and

[00:14:08] people humans who have been that bad student who couldn't sit in the circle for whatever reason

[00:14:17] or sit in the chair or i'm thinking of my sweet husband whose mother got caught in when he was in

[00:14:22] first grade because he sat upside down in the chair all the time yeah yeah i mean and we all know

[00:14:31] these people whether we're teachers or academics or not and this book is their story

[00:14:38] yeah so you're not the only one there a lot of them a lot of us count myself a lot of us

[00:14:45] box buster outers out there yeah yeah and so i think anytime right like this is the power of books

[00:14:53] and the power of getting your words out there is it allows other people to go oh i thought it was

[00:15:00] just me okay here's somebody else who's like telling my story or i can see myself in this story

[00:15:08] and that's what i really hear you saying is if you're sitting here and you know maybe you have

[00:15:15] i'm thinking really a lot of parents here who have children who yeah get the call i'm raising my hand

[00:15:21] i get the call about you know made a power point about the color purple on the crown book well he

[00:15:31] already done his work this is my you know already done his work already completed and it then became

[00:15:37] a disruption and then i had to get a phone call and then it was a convert you know and it's like

[00:15:41] yes of course i can have conversations with our students with their children about these things

[00:15:49] and i can see it plain as days basically being asked to play the game of school

[00:15:53] and to sit there quietly once he's done his work why aren't we asking questions about

[00:15:58] why is the time spent on the laptop and that's what's happening and then

[00:16:06] what is he supposed to do when he gets done he can't he was told he can't read he can't which is

[00:16:12] something he loves to do like all these interesting things of what we tell children and

[00:16:18] it's a systematic issue it's not a teacher specific issue i don't think it's even a school specific

[00:16:24] issue or an administrative specific issue those those are important factors but you know

[00:16:30] when we literally i can see and this is part of the work that we do with our clients is

[00:16:36] to reignite that version of them that got told no no no you can't write you're not a good writer

[00:16:42] you're not a good learner you're not a good fill in the blank or you struggled in school

[00:16:47] it's probably just because you did it like you're saying you didn't fit into the box and there was

[00:16:52] no opportunity for you to explore what you did fit into or what did get you excited and so

[00:17:01] i think just having reading something like this to have that validation of it's not just me

[00:17:07] or it's not just my kid or it's not just my students or these might be students i encounter in the

[00:17:13] future um it's just really important to to see ourselves and our stories in books like this

[00:17:22] and i think back to your earliest podcast when you first started this adventure of the written

[00:17:28] compass and about language and the language of school versus the language of home and all of

[00:17:37] this is all up in this book right um and it is important for parents and policymakers not just

[00:17:48] graduate students and PhD programs yes totally and it's accessible in that way like you've

[00:17:54] written it's in such a way that it is totally accessible so the book is out um i want to make sure

[00:18:01] we know where to get it in just a second but i'm curious how it feels um i know you've done some

[00:18:07] things i know you've been seen in some interesting ways lately but how does it feel to have the

[00:18:12] kind of the book read out republished kind of a little bit more on your terms well that's a good

[00:18:20] question i have to think about that for a second it feels more like me um it the book and the message

[00:18:33] and down to the cover yeah and the title are all what i meant it to be to begin with

[00:18:42] so i think that's the biggest thing and then just i'm i'm really proud of it i'm proud

[00:18:49] of the book i'm proud of the work i'm not feeling like eh is that really me it fits yeah it fits

[00:18:57] and i mean i guess to bring it full circle i was out of the box of the traditional publishing world

[00:19:05] and uh didn't fit even after i i i had published four books traditionally didn't fit

[00:19:13] and this feels so much more comfortable i'm glad you feel yeah i'm glad you said that like uh

[00:19:22] because there's a lot of people and i think this is an interesting i don't know if movement might

[00:19:25] be a little too strong but um you're not the first person author who's you know been published

[00:19:31] traditionally who has made shifts whether it is taking their book back and republishing it as a

[00:19:37] self-published book or just saying you know hear no further and self-publishing uh um you know after

[00:19:44] traditionally publishing um i've done that as well and again it's all about alignment and fit but

[00:19:50] i do think there's a really interesting conversation and i know Cindy and i want to keep having it so

[00:19:55] if it's one you're interested in definitely ping us um to have it but i do think it's this

[00:20:00] interesting conversation around um you know what is more important that a book gets into people's hands

[00:20:07] and gets sold so that it can be used and the message can get out there or that it's got a

[00:20:14] traditionally published stamp on it you know in the copyright page which for the general population

[00:20:20] if i asked you like who published the book that you're reading right now besides a few select people

[00:20:27] like most people are having to have no idea at all whatsoever so it really is just interesting to

[00:20:32] me what it means and who's deciding that i mean i'm kind of having a little met a moment on like

[00:20:37] getting schooled on resistance and the stories that you tell of those kind of that case through

[00:20:43] 12 population it's an interesting conversation i think as adults too on continuing to get schooled

[00:20:51] on resistance and finding that resistance um and i think Cindy like your work from

[00:20:58] you're coaching you're writing you're yogging all that like you really try to embody and embrace

[00:21:04] ideas of resistance just in general which really don't mean resistance it just means usually like

[00:21:11] just being fully you which often gets viewed as resistance yes absolutely yes

[00:21:24] so tell us so getting schooled on resistance and exploration of clashing narratives in urban

[00:21:29] school reform you can get that wherever you typically um get your books far and zinovo online

[00:21:35] bookshop.org um amazon all the good things and then Cindy if people want it will have the links

[00:21:42] in uh the show notes and for people who want to get connected with you what are some best ways

[00:21:48] for them to do that right now what are you up to you can just send me an email at Cindy

[00:21:55] at Cindy or bansky.com you can visit my website to see what all the things i am up to

[00:22:05] at Cindy or bansky.com and then just for funzees my instagram handle is Cindy underscore

[00:22:18] D underscore urban ski and you'll see all sorts of things there in bookstuff yoga stuff

[00:22:26] all the things dog stuff dog stuff yes i had a yoga dog writing post the other day so

[00:22:34] go check that one out yeah absolutely um Cindy as always so wonderful to talk to you please

[00:22:40] go and get this book give this book to someone who maybe has been this kid in school or has these

[00:22:47] children right now um in many ways i think all of us especially that is all the people yeah

[00:22:54] is all the people um in many ways we have had moments where we did not feel like we belonged

[00:23:01] in a school setting or a particular classroom situation so i think we could all relate to

[00:23:07] these clashing narratives and these these moments of resistance and um what that experience was like

[00:23:13] so as always so good to talk to you and thank you so much for joining us and uh following the written

[00:23:21] compass as always we want to hear your feedback what resonated with you um and when you get the book

[00:23:27] make sure you leave a review for Cindy and connect with her she um is amazing and is doing

[00:23:33] amazing stuff so i'll talk to you soon because i'm always talking to you thank you so much for having me

[00:23:40] all right take care everyone we'll see you next time

[00:23:45] thank you so much for listening to this episode of the written compass if you are enjoying this

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