Madigan’s Pubcast Bonus Episode: “Blood On Their Hands”: A Conversation with Mandy Matney

[00:00:01] Hello people, hello termites of Madigan's Pubcast. It's a special edition. I don't usually do this but I'm a super fan of Mandy Matney the podcast that I listen to forever and ever and still listen

[00:00:13] to in the Cup of Justice one but the Murdoch Murders that was my whole pathway to understanding all that and she's super smart and one of the young people working very hard so please enjoy our

[00:00:25] conversation. Well hello Kathleen. Well hello Mandy. It's so good to see you. Yeah you too. I like your background. It's very fancy. Thank you. Well it's amazing I think that the whole world has

[00:00:38] decided we all know how to do this tech stuff. Like I just got off a zoom in Denver because I'm going to do a show out there and it was a TV zoom and they're like for their local whatever

[00:00:50] but there so there's all these instructions like I am a comedian. I did not attend school for this stuff. I'm not skilled but it that way I can get my face on here but it just during COVID it just became an

[00:01:03] assumption right of course you can do all that right you're just sitting at home doing nothing drinking beer while you learn something Kathleen. Well maybe Kathleen doesn't want to learn all

[00:01:12] this. Well and like I don't think people understand like recording in this way like I go up to the same microphone every single week and like there's always some sort of a problem. I don't know if you

[00:01:25] have that problem recording your podcast but like there's just so much more that goes into it than like pressing a button. There's always technical problems and I get so frustrated. I feel like

[00:01:36] the podcast part I've kind of because that's just repeating itself but what I have noticed is like a lot of radio people now do it from their house but they forgot that the lady or the guy

[00:01:48] is a morning DJ. They're not a tech person so when they call all I hear is echoes and then they go yeah and then they're like well I'm trying to fix it well you should go back to the office

[00:02:02] I go back to the studio like or make the studio there's gotta be a child there that knows how to do everything a young person make them come to your home. Right I would yeah I mean if that's

[00:02:13] what you're doing like that's what we ended up doing is like making an actual studio in our basement because as you know the podcast went from like our kitchen table and it sounded horrible at

[00:02:25] the beginning and that's not David's fault we were just learning but eventually we were like we needed like a stable solid placement isn't my parents kitchen table to do this thing and

[00:02:37] I didn't think it sounded horrible in the beginning though but I also had nothing to compare it to. Yeah like I don't know I mean I listen to whatever and I also don't expect people to be

[00:02:48] sound engineers like like the amount of people that will complain and go well you know this week the podcast blah blah blah you know it's free that's all I say back right now it's free.

[00:02:59] You're welcome for that free gift that I gave you that you complained about I am with you. Right we've come to the point in society where people have feel that they are allowed to

[00:03:11] complain about free things no you can't do that hit block you're blocked and that like the person giving the free thing is supposed to care about the receiver's opinions of every of the gift like

[00:03:27] I don't care. Well of all of it right like if something's really wrong I want to know like if it's really wrong same but if you're just gonna nitpick because you can't see all of my face or

[00:03:38] whatever they have to say I'm like wow we you guys have gotten so spoiled and then sometimes I won't do one just for a week just on purpose. I just don't want to. Right this is free. This is why

[00:03:52] this is why you can't have nice things right because you won't think you can't behave so. I just can't believe like the amount of people that take the time I I listened to a bunch of

[00:04:04] podcasts before I started mine and you know there was a bunch that I didn't like I just didn't or there was little things that I didn't like about it but it never in a billion years

[00:04:14] crossed my mind to like stop what I was doing right find the person who created that podcast and be like this is why I stopped listening to you or this is what bothered me about this blah blah

[00:04:27] no I just stopped because they shouldn't care what I think I don't like I don't mean anything to them right I just I never before I got involved in all this I never understood like the entire

[00:04:42] I just was never aware that so many people had high opinions of themselves. What are critiques I also if I didn't like a podcast like I would never my next well I would

[00:04:53] never email or comment but I wouldn't even know where to go to do that I would have to google the person's name and then figure out where do I contact that it seems like an awful lot of work

[00:05:05] to just say your hair looked weird yeah I've thought about that too I don't have that time and also I would just feel bad doing it like if I'm gonna make a comment to somebody that

[00:05:17] could possibly I always think about like well would this stop them from what they're doing would this like get into their head too much like I just don't want to ever say anything to

[00:05:28] anybody if it's on like if somebody's if you're a dick heart bootlian I'm gonna come after you because you're doing bad things and I'm gonna make fun of you and whatever but if you're just

[00:05:39] like trying your best trying to make a little podcast not hurting anybody like God bless you I'm supportive I'm supportive of it right I was just thinking the last time I saw you was at

[00:05:51] Taylor Swift yes in Denver yeah that was a great concert for me because there were no lines in the alcohol line yeah there weren't what was up with that no I don't as I call these super young

[00:06:04] people the children because Michael Jackson always used to go the children the children just don't drink like us adults drink and it was just a wonderful like if you go to I don't know

[00:06:15] steve next or something it's gonna take a hot minute to get a beer right there no I should only go to Taylor Swift concerts if I'm really in the mood to drink right I didn't notice I went to

[00:06:26] one in Tampa but I didn't notice at the one in Denver but the one in Tampa the men's restroom line was like around the stadium because they blocked off like so many of them they made a lot of the men's

[00:06:38] restrooms women because there was yeah it was some wonderful my friend Bob who went with me he said even though they flipped the line you still don't want to go in there it's still disgusting

[00:06:49] it's still a man's bathroom and I'm like okay well that's that I won't but the merch line the merch lines at her thing wow uh I I've never seen anything like that I even like the last craziest thing I saw

[00:07:05] was the Elton John merch line for his last tour but that thing I I'm so glad I didn't care if I had a t-shirt yeah well my secret was to go during a song like I I am a super swifty but

[00:07:18] there are some songs that are like I don't really care about but it like I don't really care about love story that much so I bolted off during love story and got my stuff and there was no merch line

[00:07:27] during the concert okay none at all it was awesome now the kids know now they know what to do well okay so like are you good if you're out on this book tour I've always wondered this like as a

[00:07:40] as a comedian we're like at a show show and people can't really but if you go do a book signing is it weird the one-on-one well there's just so many weird things about the whole book process and

[00:07:54] I don't know are you interested in writing a book uh no but my comedian friends have at no I don't want I don't I'm not good like I I was don't do it like don't do it my friend

[00:08:06] Lewis Black has written a bunch and whenever he goes to do it I'm like oh no that means you're gonna be in book jail because he like has to kind of be by himself and you have to kind of get in a

[00:08:18] rhythm which means he's not very social anymore yeah and that could go on for like six weeks and then I've lost my friend where like you don't want you would not want me in your house

[00:08:29] because I just be like knock on the door every five seconds go are you done yet come on let's go it's happy hour right well and then after you get done with that super hard process of

[00:08:41] writing it the work continues you have to like I I don't know I just didn't think that this much work was involved and I'm you know I'm used to very hard work I was a journalist for over 10 years

[00:08:57] in newspapers like I'm used to hard work but this is just an exhausting exhausting long process and it's like the second that you get done with the manuscript you're starting there's

[00:09:09] just has been no end and the promotions part is weird for me too because now it's like okay you got done with all this work and all this process and now go sell yourself and go sell the book and tell

[00:09:21] people why you're great and I don't really enjoy doing that a whole lot I've often I've really wondered that about people like if you're a comedian you put yourself out there you went to open

[00:09:31] by night you I did this on purpose to me right but if you're an author if you're going to write a book it's like you're kind of doing a solitary thing it's not really a super social

[00:09:43] thing and then they expect you at the end to become missocial and yeah you get on down there to the bookstore and meet people and I that one-on-one I would be terrified that someone would come up

[00:09:57] and just start going through everything that was wrong in my book even if it wasn't wrong but I don't like that's a little close of proximity for the judgmental people especially with a

[00:10:07] subject like that right uh well I've had two like events and they weren't huge but we had a couple hundred people and we had we went to this froze a shop called the co-op in Charleston and we had

[00:10:22] like a meet and greet I signed a bunch of koozies that said don't be like Alex Murdock and that reminds me I still have hot sauce I have to send you so I'll send you some of those koozies

[00:10:33] okay good and I was overwhelmed the it was mostly women who were fans they were awesome there was a few guys who were fans every single person was like overwhelmingly super nice I was

[00:10:46] afraid like if you get a hundred a couple people there's gonna be one weirdo in there but there really wasn't um yeah and so maybe I am a little naive going into this hoping that like most trolls

[00:10:59] just stay in their basement and troll from behind keyboards and yeah but it's maybe and thank god I have David there right beside me he was like able to like move the line along and if people started

[00:11:12] to linger and ask too many questions he'd be like all right next yeah you need but that's what you need yeah the best um the best at doing that are casinos they set up a thing where it says like

[00:11:24] hi welcome to the mirage and they put me there and then the line but those casino people you get to say like one thing to me and then they just take you away like I mean I would be a little more

[00:11:35] loosey-goosey than they even they are they're very it's a machine of like go go yeah and like some yeah right and there were some people that were like several people that were like giving

[00:11:48] me tips to stories and saying like I know this blah and I kind of wanted to be like hang back I want to talk to you but yeah I mean I was amazed at how it was it was great to have that positive

[00:12:00] start to everything because I'm terrified of like I feel like during COVID I definitely became a lot more introverted and less social than I usually am and just got into my routine of like going to

[00:12:13] work in my house and not really going out and I don't go get up and go to work every day I get up and go to my basement so being around a lot of people kind of makes me very anxious especially

[00:12:24] with all this the subject matter of the Murdochs I have not been great with going in public so right I was very happy with those couple first two couple events and the fact that it went

[00:12:36] amazing but I mean I'm expecting I don't know I feel like something's gotta be weird or some person well as long as David can bounce them out are you are they expecting you to go and do all the

[00:12:49] press stuff like morning talk and all that kind of yeah uh they expect that they expect like us to get the interviews oh well maybe well people think that like going people think like a book tour is

[00:13:07] or it probably is for the bigger celebrities but not in my case people are like oh you're gonna go on a book tour and like you're gonna be like flown around right the world and somebody fancy

[00:13:18] plans the whole thing for you and books your hotels and everything no it's me and David being like maybe we'll stop in this city on the way to Thanksgiving in Kansas we're just kind of see

[00:13:31] we're planning it as we go along and I don't want to commit to too many events just because I don't want to get like overly bombarded and overwhelmed and David's always like

[00:13:43] we have you've dedicated a lot of time to this book and God bless it but like we got to move on at some point we can't just be touring around well you could you know it's funny one time that

[00:13:56] tonight show told me because the comedians uh traditionally on the tonight show were always at the end and I said how come we're always last like doing seven minutes of jokes and they said well

[00:14:08] because how it ranks it's like uh actors are number one and then uh music's number two comedy is number three as far as popularity and the only thing worse than comedy was authors and I was like oh

[00:14:23] that's sad like oh there's some there's some authors I'm sure that have a good personality that does not count like Stephen King or something like because he's already a celebrity right yeah but then the reality people encroached in that lineup and moved authors even further down down

[00:14:41] the pecking order yeah yeah and I'm like well that's just you guys are just making assumptions that all authors are not interesting off the page right and I think that like a lot are

[00:14:54] interesting but it's just like how did you when you started your career out in comedy like get the confidence to like be actually comfortable on stage because when I just realized it when I was

[00:15:07] on a small stage at the College of Charleston if I get into a room and all eyes on or on me I'm immediately like uh and I lose my train of thought like do you just get used to it I think you

[00:15:18] just get used to it but I also like bartended and waited tables like I was just always used to walking up to strangers going what can I do for you right hello I'm here I'm your server for the

[00:15:29] tonight and I'm from a big family so everybody's kind of malady and every you got to speak up or you're never gonna get heard I don't know that part never even bother you that part doesn't

[00:15:41] no but I don't know what that says good or bad about me but I mean there's just people that are I'm just as comfortable but also you start the comedy club on an open night night there's

[00:15:50] probably only you know 40 people on a Monday so it doesn't seem crazy like we always joke it seems more like an AA meeting and it's just your turn to talk they're just sitting there just sitting

[00:16:05] comfortable in jeans and t-shirt like it doesn't right on the old school clubs were it was so compact it just felt like more like a family room I guess then yeah it's not like all of a sudden you

[00:16:18] get put at the Fox theater there's 5500 people there you'd be like oh my god no no no no no I'm running away you just sold out in st. Louis right yeah at the steveville yeah so did it

[00:16:30] did it feel like more does like the difference in crowds with like a crowd that big feel different or it's just all the same it's all the same except the actual venue can help or hurt like the st.

[00:16:44] Louis one is good because the seats go up and they're closer but then there's some venues where that bottom thing goes way way way way back and I feel like those people are never part of the show

[00:16:55] I feel like they're detached because I've sat I'm sat in those seats are at the rhyman there's an overhang and if you get underneath that overhead like I've sat in those seats and I'm like

[00:17:05] I don't really feel like I'm 100% here right yeah I'm like under a roof I'm under a roof right it within a building right so it's kind of that's the only thing that would

[00:17:16] really change the how I hear it on stage I don't know how they well I do know from sitting at other people shows you just don't it's not like being in the free range chicken part

[00:17:26] you're like a caged chicken yeah in the back yeah yeah I mean I I think that I but I'm glad that this I say like this is my author era and I just have to kind of embrace this new part of

[00:17:39] myself that's more extroverted and just go for it and not be so nervous and I mean which genuinely these things that I'm speaking at like everybody there is super like it's a super fan

[00:17:53] so I'm like why are you even nervous Mandy I just have it in the back of my head that like some lunatic who attacks me on Twitter all the time is going to just be in the front row staring

[00:18:04] me down but then I shouldn't even be afraid of that that's stupid too right that's why David will throw him out yeah there's a whole protocol yeah you can make a joke about that yeah mine is

[00:18:14] if somebody gets too out of hand I say I think I need to buy you a shot and that's my code to the bouncers oh nice yeah because it sounds like I'm being nice to the person but really I'm

[00:18:26] throwing you out nice we got to come up with one of those daybed yeah I don't know your events may not have the amount of liquor on hand that might have so if that might have been two years ago

[00:18:44] on your podcast I don't even know years anymore um long time ago it felt like you gave us a shout out and you found out about our show and you started listening to the Murdock murders podcast

[00:18:57] do you remember how you found out about it well I think if I remember right I saw the story about him somewhere I don't know about about him and so I thought well there has to be like a podcast

[00:19:11] because this is a big deal like in that area and then I went and found your podcast and then I got super mad because I felt like the the regular Joe blow media meaning let's say good morning America

[00:19:24] or they were just coaching everything I already heard on your podcast and then but they never accredited you they were just like oh so all this stuff's going on in South Carolina and then

[00:19:35] every week I was telling my friends listen to this this person is five weeks ahead of the today show and they're just stealing it that's why I think you should get to go back on those

[00:19:44] things and go all of you owe me an apology or at least a six pack of my favorite beer because you totally stole my work and you you you condensed it so it wasn't as quote hard for the morning people

[00:19:56] because the morning shows want to be you know oh my gosh just that sensitive subject we have to make fines in a minute let's get this away let's talk about this so then I just started

[00:20:05] listening to every episode all the way well till now yeah because I also said I was a journalism major in college and I don't feel like there's journalism anywhere anymore like nobody the reason

[00:20:16] I quit journalism is because it got too hard so nobody's doing the hard work anymore but unlike me they didn't quit go do something else they just slack off at the job like to go down to a

[00:20:29] courthouse and go through find information and all that the horrible stuff you have to learn in journalism school I felt like nobody's doing that anymore except you were and then I saw

[00:20:40] how young you were and I was like well good for the young people like this isn't some lady like me that's like in her fifties like there's that I won't cuss but there's a documentary don't f with cat

[00:20:52] have you seen it don't yeah okay yeah that lady that that lady in Las Vegas did the work and she found the guy yes amazing what people can do when they decide I'm upset or I'm gonna

[00:21:07] find this jerk who's killing cats or and it turns out he's killing people it was it was just it's nice to see everyone's while somebody really kind of get off their ass and do the work so well

[00:21:19] thank you I appreciate that lots of responses to what you were saying because I'm trying to keep track of my mind but first of all you said like I should go back on all those shows yeah

[00:21:32] it's so funny because I didn't necessarily talk crap on I did I talk crap on a lot of national news outlets not only for stealing my work I mean that was one thing I just kind of got used to it

[00:21:45] and whatever but uh them just being very very lazy and they just kept giving the benefit of the doubt to Alex Murdock and his stupid lawyers no matter like how many times they lied

[00:21:57] and lazy as in they just didn't take the time to understand the complexity of the story and so many journalists would call me or would find my email in those first few months and

[00:22:13] their immediate response was like can you give me the like they would ask can you give me the lowdown can you basically tell me give me the background and I'm like I have a podcast that

[00:22:24] provides the background like I don't have time to like just be calling and giving everybody my notes from the last few years that's insane but I just kind of realized and I talk a lot about this in

[00:22:35] my new book how broken the system of journalism really is and how like god a lot of news reporters from very well-respected agencies were doing very little on this story and I thought like oh

[00:22:49] the big guns are coming into town I'm gonna get start to get really competitive and they're all gonna take my sources and and so I started to get more competitive and kind of started to get

[00:23:02] crazy with myself and I mean for the most part they were still like a million years behind on everything and I was very surprised by that and granted I was uh it was a weird situation because

[00:23:17] I was ahead of everybody like I had two years of research already done and I talk about that in the book a lot and like what that research entailed I don't think a lot of people understand

[00:23:27] like when they see a story how that comes about how the journalist comes up with sources how she found that court document and I go into all of that fun stuff but yeah now they uh as in

[00:23:40] the book people want me to like kind of go back to all of the people that I've maybe talked a little I talked some crap on legacy media and now I'm like help me sell my book

[00:23:55] no worries well they still will at the at the end of the day at the end of the day they're all kind of just looking for the money so if you boost their ratings they'll do it they'll do

[00:24:07] you should do it right they want you I would go do it but that's the thing that's so annoying is like I think I figured out the formula that they're all following with like true crime cases

[00:24:17] and everything and they don't they don't do the legwork on there's a million unsold murders across the country there's I'm sure a handful of other murdoch other type stories that are just

[00:24:28] out there and nobody's dug into them like throw a rock and you'll find a crazy murder story in the United States but the media just focuses on like the same seven over and over

[00:24:39] every year over and over and it's like all of them just go on the same like we've we've heard the how many different versions have we heard of like the Jeffrey Dahmer case or like like

[00:24:50] old cases too they like to spend lots of time and resources on it and it's like why what is the point of that but I figured out that like they don't want to they don't want to do the

[00:24:59] legwork that I did for two years and that was different years without knowing that the reward is big like without knowing that there's a huge audience out there for that they don't want to

[00:25:11] spend that time but they're like uh everybody in their brother is clicking on murdoch stories so we're just gonna keep on that and it's just it's a crazy world I don't think I don't

[00:25:22] think the big networks care about well just the big shows through there's no reason to mention names but if it's not if there's not enough flair in it they don't want it but if if I

[00:25:34] like I love true crime it doesn't have to have all the flair for me to want to watch it but they're and they're never gonna put two years of work in anything no way right I mean they're just never

[00:25:45] going to do that so if nobody does it if you didn't do what you've done what would be our coverage of this I mean that's something to really think about like the local paper person that kind of

[00:25:57] cares but they just repeat and write what they've been told right and like local newspapers are gutted at this point and they like the Hampton County Guardian where this all happens that paper doesn't

[00:26:11] even like technically exist anymore it's owned by Gannett and so there's one reporter in Hampton and he of course has to get to other stories and I know what it's like to be in the right a

[00:26:24] local small town newspaper reporter you got a lot to do and you don't have time to do like investigations or dig into anything and the corporate overlords they don't care about that either

[00:26:36] like and and they're just like crank out the clicks man and it's just disgusting but I talk about a lot of that in my book and just how and I worked with my Clatty which was one of the

[00:26:47] largest newspaper companies in the country while the boat crash was going on and up until the end of 2019 but McClatchy it was just amazing what was going on there and the priorities that were

[00:26:59] given to reporters it was basically like you need stories that will generate clicks and generate subscriptions online and they like wanted to try to basically make reporters start to sell subscriptions or like they were like when at the end when I was there they were like

[00:27:17] eventually we'll have quotas for reporters to meet for subscription sales and I was like hold on oh wow I did not sign up to be a newspaper subscription salesperson like that is not

[00:27:31] and I get paid nothing for this job like it's already hard enough as it is and they just kept making it harder on reporters so I understand why there's not investigative journalism in the

[00:27:43] way that there should be I think you really have to like in college this friend of mine in journalism school her name was Carrie Carrie just liked like the fight of journalism like she wanted

[00:27:56] to win and I don't have that like extra gear to the point where she ended up on 60 minutes because she alone solved the murder in Alt mill in a way good yeah I mean it was amazing back

[00:28:09] then because there's people like me going can I just do a story on salad bars like I don't want to I can't fight the power but I also felt like you can't do it and you'll never win and she won

[00:28:22] but I you know she was one out of tons of us in school that actually just loved it so much she took the crappy pay and just did it yeah and I mean I was the salad bar girl for years

[00:28:37] in journalism like it took me a while to like get guts I wanted to do the fight but I was also like I like stories about sharks and alligators and they get tons of clicks and like I get praise when

[00:28:48] I do these dumb stories I had a thing at the packet where like every it was in Hilton that island South Carolina so like the easiest thing in the world was a shark story or an

[00:28:58] alligator story and I was all over that like I have to admit I was that and also it's easier like the environment kind of encourages that but like if if you're not getting paid that much you might

[00:29:13] as well have some fun at work and write about the local salad bar that you're interested in versus like going to city council and figuring out how much money they're stealing from taxpayers

[00:29:24] like that's hard work right they uh there was one point where I worked for UPI that tells you how old I am APs competitor back in the day and they assigned me to the story of the st. Louis city

[00:29:39] cable company fight so there were like three cable companies trying to get oh fun the business of saying oh my god I mean at one point I literally did fall asleep in the courtroom

[00:29:53] like I had to sit there and listen to all this and then I thought I don't have this in me I just don't I don't even know what they're talking about like I can't even follow more or less write down

[00:30:02] what I just heard I don't even understand what I heard it did they complicate it so everything on purpose I'm sure that you're gonna weed me out you're gonna weed me out and then one day

[00:30:12] I'm gonna go oh so-and-so got the thing for the st. Louis city of all the cable in st. Louis city is now run by so-and-so and this all happened last Thursday and right and I mean who wants to sit

[00:30:25] there for that god bless like reporters that are going to city council meetings and doing that type of stuff because uh I started my career doing that in a small town and at the paper I was at

[00:30:38] there was like one other reporter that was there for a hot minute but she left very quickly and she was like trying to give me the rundown of how things go at the Waynesville daily guide and was

[00:30:48] like every Monday you sit in the plumbing meet or not plumbing what is it sewer sewer board meeting every Monday you have to go to sewer board oh I was just like why do you go to sewer board

[00:31:02] and I went I went to like one and I again it's like they make things extra complicated and it's not very interesting but they make things dull purposefully so that like nobody pays attention but the other thing was that like I noticed all these legacy companies had reporters

[00:31:23] like that who just went to sewer board just because they've always been going to sewer board every week and they waste like five hours a week on sewer board and it's like why are we doing

[00:31:33] this so I kind of started my career kind of asking like maybe like our resources could be used for other things that are not only I wanted to cover things that were more interesting just so I didn't

[00:31:45] like I get bored very easily I could not sit in those meetings the reporter that was telling me the lowdown like I think she legitimately just like going to meetings and sitting and

[00:31:54] not doing anything and I think a lot of like old school reporters really do like that I'm not like that I'm like oh what's the purpose of this in or out let's go right yeah good times

[00:32:07] I feel like a lot of them if it was an interesting topic that does not include the St. Louis City Cable Company contract but like let's say it was about what books are going to be allowed to school

[00:32:20] that city council meeting would have kind of interested me and I'd be like okay this would be good but then after about I don't know after about four people talk too long I'm like this is

[00:32:30] the worst open mic ever like an open mics they have a light in the back and if you get the light you have to get off stage within a minute that's the rule and if you don't they cut the mic and

[00:32:42] then if you will still won't get off stage I've never seen it go that far someone will come and get you and physically take you off the stage I felt like all of that should have been

[00:32:50] implemented at those meetings yeah like somebody gets up wants to talk about some book that's in a third grade reading list and then they want to tell their whole life story no no

[00:33:00] no grandma no no we're not doing that or a bell or something good to go name it that's I thought that was my last chance well this might be interesting and then I was like oh there's no

[00:33:10] controlling this no one's just there's no bouncers nobody's in charge it's true like they the amount of time wasted I have sat and those types of government meetings where like there's just no and oh there's I found that like a lot of older people in communities they just

[00:33:30] go to these things and say things and these things just to do something and to like it's the it's clearly the only person that they talk to all day with city council so they are going to

[00:33:39] talk forever and the rest of us are just there to as hostages of a boring situation and yeah it's it's crazy I think they they plan it all week and I think they really think

[00:33:54] when I get down there and say what I want to say you're going to see some changes no you're not no you're not no you're not grandpa just stay home and watch hogan's heroes

[00:34:04] watch watch the war channel or whatever the history channel like they I think they truly believe on some of aside from their boredom that they're actually going to change something

[00:34:15] and that's probably not the way to go about that and you know I'm I'm all in for like public engagement and change in all of those things but a lot of times it's I mean like the things that

[00:34:30] I've seen a debate at that city that city council there that people get so worked up over are just so ridiculous like noise ordinance and this and things like that that it's like

[00:34:41] you're not really going to make a big change with a 9 p.m noise ordinance and like you're just gonna you're just gonna like make people less happy because they want to play their music at 9 o'clock

[00:34:52] whatever uh yeah it's uh I do not miss I am here to make people less happy that is my goal that's a lot that is a lot of old people that older I don't want to be offensive

[00:35:05] people who attend city council meetings I watched one online I don't even know where it was it was about pickleball now that one was worth it because the pro pickleball people are super opinionated and everybody's older like I'll just say over 65 and then the people I start

[00:35:24] inside with this the people who live next to the court where they're like oh no this starts at six in the morning and it goes till night at night and it's slowly driving us crazy and I

[00:35:35] was like you know what I said I could see how that can happen that noise is and now my house lost value right because nobody wants to buy my house because I'm right next to the pickleball

[00:35:45] people but then I but then I played pickleball it was super fun so I don't really but that one was like one of the only fun ones I've seen in a long time and I think it was 2019 the last

[00:35:57] year I was at the packet I got involved have you seen a sunset have you been to a sun city it's kind of like they're the old folks communities with the villages where your parents live right

[00:36:08] they were only there for a short time we move we move I move them away from they needed to be around people that were less political yeah oh so Sun City is like a retirement community

[00:36:22] and it's outside of Hilton Head and it was in our coverage area and these these old men called me from Sun City when I was a reporter and they were like so upset that they Sun City had they

[00:36:36] these guys lived kind of on a golf course but basically where there was just open land next to their houses they were going to put a public bathroom and it was all very close it was for

[00:36:51] the golf course and it was like a whole thing people they packed the city council meetings to talk about this bathroom I don't even remember I covered that thing for like several stories it was

[00:37:05] like the story of the year at Sun City it was all but I understood it like these guys were like I bought this house thinking that there was a nice like piece of land right around me that was

[00:37:19] peaceful and whatever and now there's a bunch of toilets and I don't want that and I got it but it's it's fascinating what people will put their minds to and rally around and they started like

[00:37:31] support systems and organized it's amazing meanwhile there are things in your town you could actually try to be working on that are a little more meaningful yes yes or world things or

[00:37:46] global things or the bathroom is either going to get there or not right why don't you move on to something less great and I think that's more important and I think that's the problem with

[00:37:58] reporters too is that you get into a story like the bathrooms and it's easy and it's kind of funny and people click on it it's fascinating but it's like are you really doing a public service

[00:38:10] and are you really doing what you're supposed to be doing here or or or the easy answer to the bathroom like on golf courses we have a code box and you only get the code up at the golf course

[00:38:22] and it changes every day right and so then you're only gonna have a couple people use in the bathroom and it's yeah I get to you like I've played with my mom and dad I've played all these golf

[00:38:32] courses in Florida where I go to use the bathroom and my mom was like the code is 4-1-9-8 that whatever right I'm like why is there a code and they were like I go there's no one out here

[00:38:43] we're like on the 13th hole we're not near a home or not near well because at the meeting people are upset homeless people how would a homeless person know to come here it if they did they'd probably

[00:38:55] be like I gotta get out of here there's no people for me to ask for food or money or it's cold yeah I don't understand but the the old people won they won there's codes on every bathroom and every

[00:39:08] golf course in Florida and that's because some old person did not want to see some homeless person startle them when they went in the bathroom it's gonna be really interesting to see like what

[00:39:17] happens to city councils and like everything as millennials take over I know Hilton Head is very concerned about most of Hilton Head is private neighborhoods that have a gate and really really strict HOAs and like if you know anything about millennials like they're not into

[00:39:36] that they're not into HOAs like people telling them what to do all day and yeah it'll be very in like will anybody run or can we run I don't know I used to do a joke in my act where

[00:39:51] Obama when he was running for president he'd say I'm gonna need some help here from you guys I'm gonna need need you to email your congressman and tell him A, B, and C and I'm like well then I'm

[00:40:01] gonna need you to email me who they are because I don't even know but you're making some grand assumptions here that I know all of my congressmen and at that age I did not know any of them

[00:40:15] no but then the older I get the more I pay attention but that's the problem because then you're just gonna have old people in charge you need to figure out how to interest young

[00:40:25] people maybe have alcohol maybe serve liquor maybe you know like a hot dog event so great and that's the thing too that like we discovered with the podcast and Liz is so brilliant at with you get these very heavy topics and traditional journalism is just so anti like

[00:40:46] using humor to tell the news explaining where your stance is and explaining your opinion and why and how you found that opinion and we were we found with our audience that like they left that kind

[00:41:01] of stuff they left when like you can break something down have a super complicated news issue like all of the struggles for the money in the Alex Murdoch's case which are just so freaking

[00:41:13] complicated and I say Alex Murdoch I'm sure I'm so mad that I said Alec at that first because then you had to say in the first podcast yes I will admit for the first time that was my biggest

[00:41:26] mistake so far because now everybody's like uh is it like or elixir it's a stupid name I don't care whatever his name is right we all know who we're talking about it's that guy it's stupid

[00:41:41] murderer murder man baby that man he sucks uh I'm tired of I don't care how he pronounces his name but at the beginning like it was kind of important how he pronounced his name because

[00:41:53] the locals said it one way and everybody else is saying it's something different so I was trying to get some local street cred I don't even know where I was going with this uh boiling down

[00:42:01] topics but like the whole reason but I think that's what's cool about the podcast because yours and there's others that I listed to where they're gonna go we're doing a deep dive

[00:42:10] but we're gonna do it slowly so as the listener you're not like overwhelmed we're like ah too hard too hard too hard like I've listened to a lot of crypto ones because I'm sort of interested in all

[00:42:22] the crypto and all that and some of them I think are super user friendly and others I think I happen to know a lot about that so I like that but if you did not you wouldn't even know what

[00:42:33] they were talking about right but at least now they're all out there so if you really want to know everything about the murderers then go listen to yours and it's it's it's user friendly

[00:42:44] but complete yeah and we kept it entertaining I mean the the point of it is journalism but we also made sure that like our audience was paying attention and our audience could actually understand these complicated subjects and like we were saying earlier that is one big

[00:42:59] conclusion that I found is that things like the sewer board can seem extra complicated but because they put all these words and they make it sound really confusing yeah but you strip

[00:43:12] away all of that and it usually is just not complicated and uh they're all trying to fool you so that has been what we've been doing so far and it's been very illuminating to like show

[00:43:26] people that they can actually figure out what's going on their local government and they can get court documents from lawsuits and things like that and teach them these tools that like you can actually figure this stuff out too it doesn't take you don't need a journalism degree

[00:43:40] I just think that our society but I feel like we were never taught any of that no like what happened no what are you when you're in fifth grade somebody goes that's the mayor well okay

[00:43:52] what's that guy do like I don't they don't even explain the structure from local government to regional government to federal government to that's why I think the super nerds can sneak in

[00:44:06] because they're more apt to understand all that and go oh I'll run for congress over here because there's no the districting is strange I mean every week Lewis yells about redistricting and then he

[00:44:18] tries to get me to understand it and I'm like Lou I don't care about your boundaries I don't I know I should care I know that I know that but it's too hard I don't Jerry Mandarin yeah like

[00:44:28] Lou's an old guy though so he's very upset about Jerry Mandarin very upset and I'm like Lou word up you're the only one but when you're when you're gonna get into this at happy hour you're

[00:44:42] gonna notice people drifting out because nobody's interested even though we all should be we were never taught the basis of any of it right like I remember when I was in Wainesville Missouri I asked the question to that reporter that and I was an editor it was

[00:44:58] an awkward situation I walk into this it was a tiny newspaper at Wainesville Missouri I think we had like a thousand subscribers and it was a five day a week paper it was wow yeah

[00:45:12] so it's a lot of work I had a sports reporter this one reporter for a hot minute and then a designer and then I had to figure out like what went in the paper every day and that went down

[00:45:25] and I was fresh out of college and it was just the craziest job that you could ever imagine but I remember asking this girl reporter who had been there forever and I felt stupid asking

[00:45:35] like does the mayor vote in city council and she was like she shamed me for asking that quite like you don't know how city council works blah blah blah blah blah blah but no nobody knows

[00:45:46] how city councils work nobody knows no only the people on city council even half the council people clearly don't know how it works because they don't shut up when they're told their times right

[00:45:59] like none of it ever none of it ever like and I think that that's all honestly by by design like we all took civics in high school or middle school or whatever but it didn't teach

[00:46:11] the very basics of local government like you said like we all knew who the mayor was but did we have any idea what they did or the kind of budget that was under them or like some cities the mayor votes

[00:46:23] some cities the mayor gets paid some cities the mayor doesn't like some cities the mayor's full-time job but it's fat but I think that like society likes to shit like I felt super stupid

[00:46:34] for asking that question like how do we even think how does city council even work but nobody nobody knows nobody unless well and then you think and then why would young people want to get

[00:46:48] involved there's no uh the money is terrible you would almost have to like somehow deepen your heart want to make a change and you're like okay this is the only way I can do that like you'd

[00:47:00] have to be almost possessed or obsessed with the idea because the money is not there it's no fun like the only thing I knew about our mayor growing up is his last name was Egan which is

[00:47:11] super irish and on St. Patrick's Day he would ride around in a green convertible Cadillac and throw candy at us and I thought that's a great job I mean I don't know what else he does

[00:47:22] I think I remember thinking that the mayor was like a millionaire like if you're and probably thought that like throughout high school like just did not know anything and again in a journalism school it really wasn't taught anything about and in college we just kind

[00:47:41] of skipped over local government and all that works but I was thrown into this uh Wainsville, Missouri and thank god I became friends with the mayor there and she was this wonderful woman

[00:47:54] Lou Chardman she's a big character in my book actually because she was like my first source in journalism and she was a retired history teacher who like you were saying she was that

[00:48:05] person with like the crazy enough bone in her to like I want to make a difference in my community and she did not get paid enough to cover her gas in Wainsville like she did it as her retired

[00:48:20] job but like it literally didn't cover her monthly gas to get to all the meetings and things and because she was an active mayor like you can get elected and be like a boring mayor or you could

[00:48:30] like try to make a difference and yeah Lou Chardman got paid almost nothing and it was fascinating she really helped me explain like how everything works I had no idea I mean I don't think most

[00:48:41] people know and I don't understand why high schools don't explain that to kids because they don't and they also don't explain it would be good they also don't explain law

[00:48:49] like my dad was a lawyer and all he would come home from work and just go I don't know why people are talking to the police you do not have to talk to the police until you are under arrest I'm

[00:48:59] like nine and I'm like okay I got it I'm never talking to the cops dad you got it but people when I see like on all these shows these uh murder shows where they're like so and so walked into

[00:49:10] the police station because they asked him to come down I'm like oh my god you don't have to do that but normal people don't know that normal people I know like my brother goes Kathleen

[00:49:20] not everybody had a lawyer screaming things in the house at night about the American justice system I'm like I know but everybody should get to know those things like they should teach us in school

[00:49:32] they should right like you have rights and uh right that should be a basic like you have before we teach you the rest let's teach you about like the rights that you actually have and how to not get screwed over by your own government because that's terrible

[00:49:50] or also get screwed over by the people your taxpayers are paying I'm paying for that cop right exactly if I don't have to get if I don't have to get out of the car I'm not good I don't

[00:50:00] have to get out of the car right and right like I I'm trying to remember the Netflix show The David and I Watch I think it was during COVID it was like confessions of false confessions

[00:50:13] have you ever seen that show yeah it's insane it's like a series of deep dives into different cases where people accidentally confessed because they were in situations where like their spouse was

[00:50:24] murdered and the police were like come with me and they were like okay gotta come with you and of course your spouse was murdered so they're like really really wrecked and like not in a good

[00:50:35] spot and the police like basically convince them that they're trapped in this room for 48 hours with like no food no help no and they end up confessing to murder because they feel like there's

[00:50:48] no way out and it makes sense when you watch a show of like oh this is how it actually happens because I could see if you didn't know your basic rights of like no I'm not coming with you you

[00:50:58] just I we're honestly taught the opposite I think feel like we were taught like go with cops go right along that's wrong or just kids are told if that's a person in a position of

[00:51:11] authority you're supposed to just abide by whatever they say but this is a different situation and if your dad doesn't happen to be a lawyer or a judge or something like that you're not gonna

[00:51:22] how else would you know except watching these crime shows right unless you're a true crime nerd who are like what was the one about um on Netflix the avarice the oh uh making a murderer

[00:51:33] the the wisconsin making a murderer when they took the young one down the 15 year old and then and he says all this stuff and he goes can I after he said he killed somebody

[00:51:44] and then he goes can I go play x-fax now ah like my head just wanted to explode and go somebody and then that lady did try to help them but like you've already said too much you've already done

[00:51:56] you didn't have to and I'm not rooting for murderers I'm just rooting for right no I know right same and I a lot of people always criticize me as being like very pro prosecution but I'm not

[00:52:11] at all that way like usually I've seen enough to know that there are lots and way too many people in prison for crimes they they did not commit and that it happens mostly to poor people that

[00:52:22] like they don't have a lawyer they don't know their rights and they just get screwed by the system I've seen that happen and that was something I kind of like started to pay

[00:52:31] attention to later in my journalism career of like wow a lot of people in our county jail are just in jail be literally because they're poor there's no other reason and that's so insane to me

[00:52:43] and like why are there's some really weird charges that you pay attention to your county jail and like click in my county jail you can click on the bug shot and what they're in for

[00:52:54] and there's one charge uh called walking on a highway this is in Indiana by any chance because Indiana has roadsides that say no standing I don't even know our is that a problem or people

[00:53:06] just standing out here right but I think a lot of these like I think a lot of these laws were literally designed as a racist mechanism as a reason for white cops to be able to arrest

[00:53:19] black people as a just I don't know it's just wrong it's just you're really wrong and I don't understand why it's still happening and also it's just insane to me that like if you don't have

[00:53:30] anybody around you who has $200 for this stupid charge you could end up in jail for like 60 days which I've seen and that's just horrible like the whole thing is bananas wrong people just

[00:53:42] don't know the rights and then what if you do start to understand it all then you start to even in more mad like because if they say bail for Sam bankman freed his mother father have half

[00:53:52] the money that he stole and then they just put that money up and then he's free yeah I mean if no he was not granted bail but had he been like a lot of the other Elizabeth there knows for instance

[00:54:03] she's she was out on bail the whole time playing with a dog and having a baby and because her parents had enough money but if she was just regular Joe blow you would have never had all

[00:54:15] that time you could have you could come up with the bail did you see the New York Times article on her that like she was the new Elizabeth that she was it was right she was like reinvented herself

[00:54:29] as this kinder nicer it was a ridiculous profile and it gave her so I did yeah because that lady who wrote that I felt like you want this to be true I feel like you're hoping this

[00:54:43] becomes and she she's a sociopath she's not going to become a nice lady tomorrow instead it's not going to happen and she like basically admitted in the article that the journalist was fooled by her

[00:54:54] and she was like I was well that is your number one problem as a journalist because we are supposed to sniff out the BS like that is our skill right and you fell for the so that lady fell for

[00:55:10] this sociopathic dog and pony show we're like I don't know I thought it was really likable like with everything with Elizabeth Holmes like it's kind of like alex murdoch we're like I can understand

[00:55:20] when people are fooled by them when nobody else is really questioning around them and they're this powerful person and they walk into a room blah blah blah but like now if you're fooled

[00:55:31] by Elizabeth Holmes you're not very smart because we know way too much now if you're fooled by alex murdoch you are not very smart I did wonder that woman reporter who wrote that I thought have you

[00:55:45] not read any other articles um about this lady how do I know more about Elizabeth Holmes than you do and it's not I'm obsessed with sociopaths so that's why I happened to know because it's like

[00:55:56] a hobby but you are you work for the New York Times but I don't know and you shouldn't admit like they print yeah and that was one thing that I was like something's really that was a like

[00:56:08] major gut check moment for me where I was just like we are off base here in the journalism world if we are printing like glorification pieces of Elizabeth monsters like Elizabeth Holmes she's

[00:56:20] a horrible human being and this should not be happening period but where was where was the editor exactly where was the editor I don't get it why did you allow that to go out

[00:56:32] they did a thing and I'm not here to just bash in the art times uh 100 but they did a thing on stand up comedy it was like in the whatever the fun section and it was like a night on the town with

[00:56:44] so and so I don't even remember the comic half of the things in there weren't true and I thought well you know I know that's not true so now if I read the story about the opera person is that

[00:56:56] half true right like nobody checked right yeah it was I don't know and it didn't that's no harm no file you're just talking about comedy clubs in New York but when we're talking about a sociopath

[00:57:08] who stole everybody's stuff you can't just be enamored with her I think I think she was like wanted to meet in Greece like oh I get the needle isn't it home and like but also with the editor

[00:57:19] and like I've been a newspaper editor I know what your decisions are you have to think about how it looks in Facebook Twitter and people that don't read the article because most people don't

[00:57:31] read the article at all they see the headline they see the photo and that's and then they will go from there with their opinions and you have to think about that and how it comes across in that list

[00:57:44] with Holmes article I don't remember what the headline said specifically but that compared with the photo just looked like this is like her vogue profile or doing something cool right you're what's crazy as you're doing the exact same thing that started all right right when when

[00:58:05] Fortune magazine and all those magazines would put her on you're being fooled none of them did a bit of research none of them except finally finally the guy I think he was out west who was like

[00:58:16] while she's general I think it was yeah okay wait a minute the money isn't adding up here where is the product you know show me your machine that's blood testing but then he knows he's up

[00:58:28] against some of the most you know George Schultz some of the most power people in the world have invested Clinton everybody who's gonna listen to that guy I'm sure that was his thought it

[00:58:37] would be my thought right and with Theranos like she had so many huge investors and she had like she had everybody fooled man but thank god for that one reporter and just asking basic questions

[00:58:52] but also how could this always crack me up like so there's these old interviews with Elizabeth and she has like a normal kind of higher pitched voice and then all of a sudden she started

[00:59:04] talking like this like right there you have to know this lady is full of it like there's something wrong this isn't normal to go well I think this sounds more commanding

[00:59:16] and I think it was so obviously fake right and I uh years ago I listened to I feel like I feel like it was ABC did a podcast on her it was called The Dropout and then it ended up being a show

[00:59:29] oh yeah that's really good yeah I was doing it was yeah I mean that's all the basic research like they did all the homework for you in that podcast alone like that I remember they

[00:59:39] interviewed somebody from a who went to college with her and was like yeah that voice is totally not her at all right she literally has developed this crazy persona and I mean again like how are

[00:59:52] you fooled by somebody who has been exposed to this degree of being a complete fraud and I'm getting that again with Alex Murdock like there's been this new rise of like pro Alex Murdock people

[01:00:06] and people that are like he's innocent blah blah blah and I don't understand it for the life of me hi and again like I'm fine with people two years ago I got lots of phone calls from people that were

[01:00:20] like I don't think he did it man like I knew him and I would say two and a half years ago that a lot of people stood up for him or which was understandable but now knowing everything that

[01:00:32] we know even from just the financial crimes alone it's like how could you possibly even care to stand up for this man he is such a piece of garbage I don't understand it I don't either except I think

[01:00:45] they let there's some people that just like being contrarians and then there's other people that they think if they take the side that's less popular they get more attention you know what do you mean you didn't think he do it does it and then that starts

[01:00:56] a bar conversation because you're the odd guy out there's some guy on tiktok like every other Thursday he'll go I have another thing to show you why he didn't commit these murders follow me for part three

[01:01:08] and then I never follow him because I know whatever he's gonna say is just garbage but those people are out there I mean they're out there yeah and I don't know if there's

[01:01:19] money in tiktok and do it I mean I know that like when you get to a huge degree in tiktok then obviously there's money but like for the people that don't have that many followers and

[01:01:29] the people just like throwing at these crazy conspiracy theories and I mean that I think I know the guy who you're talking about and he has too many followers like he has too many

[01:01:40] followers and he deserves but it is tiktok and that's all weird but like I I don't under again like I don't understand the point of putting that effort into things and like you just wake up one day

[01:01:55] and you want to defend like no nobody nobody's saying what wants to do that because at the end of the day he's a crap person who's obviously a sociopath and there's no point of defending him

[01:02:08] because he deserves to be in prison for the rest of his life and I just don't understand it. I think it's the attention because like that guy on tiktok why else would anybody watch his tiktoks

[01:02:21] there's no reason but then he can get up in the day and say look I have all these people and I think it makes him feel good. Yeah but like he's also a fraudster I know who you're talking

[01:02:30] about and he got in he was one of those ppp loan guys and uh admitted to that and like oh those are the types of people when you actually figure out who they are it's like oh that's why you think

[01:02:47] Alex Murdoch's a good guy because you're obviously not because you're a bad guy too yeah so you know right yeah I don't know I don't I won't I'll never understand the people that will defend it and I

[01:03:01] always love the people that go well I never saw a murder anybody well that doesn't mean he didn't just because you or I never saw him you know hit somebody or be violent well that

[01:03:11] doesn't mean your your one experience does not cover the map here right and it comes up a lot when people say that like well I never saw him to be violent well do you live with them are you

[01:03:23] his kid are you his husband or wife or partner you know they think there's their opinion so important that if they didn't witness it then therefore it never happened to anybody right

[01:03:32] that's great and it's just like I I feel like we are very similar and like we're raised Catholic growing up and you have a little shame with that but I feel like like I was never raised to

[01:03:46] think that my opinions matter at all that much and that like I just don't I don't understand I don't understand where these people are coming from and why they think the things they do

[01:04:00] and I I don't know I feel that way when I hear kids in grade schools where the kid obviously did something and then the parent will defend the kid and somehow make it the teachers fault

[01:04:11] and I think my parents they didn't even need any proof if the teacher said we did something they just went with that and then we were in trouble there were me a few times where I tried

[01:04:21] to put up my own defense ago here's the thing and then it never worked and they're like no if the nuns said it you did it same of my parents were immediately like well what did

[01:04:31] you do wrong Mandy and there's a hilarious John Mulaney stand up also a Catholic he talks about how like he's like my he's like I could have been dragged in by like a hobo and my parents would

[01:04:47] have believed like the least credible man in town over me it does not matter and that's how like my parents are always like well what did you do like you must have done something to get into the situation right and that's just how I've always viewed everything so

[01:05:02] Kathleen lots of things I'd like to ask you about but let me think about this what intrigued you the most about the Murdoch story and like what what kept you interested in it

[01:05:16] um the absolute most I think that someone would be willing to kill their wife and son for money well drug money or to not for whatever reason just be willing to do that and then outside

[01:05:32] of that life you're quote normal it's not like you're Charles Manson you're doing this all the time or or Jeffrey Dahmer so I think it was just what seems to be a normal guy outstanding lawyer

[01:05:45] blah and then he has this other life that's the part that really like I don't think we've ever had a story like that that I can think of yeah the motive to a lot of people I don't think made

[01:05:57] a lot of sense and it is just hard to wrap your head around it makes sense to me just because I'm a nerd and I've been doing this for four years and I feel unfortunately like I understand

[01:06:11] that like Murdoch's brain and I don't want to but I think but I think that's the point it's like normal people aren't supposed to understand what would motivate this man to murder his family because it's murder always should be the last case scenario I was amazed during the

[01:06:28] trial of how many people weren't like really wanting that he cheated and that's why he murdered or something like that and it's like well if his life is collapsing and he can find a way out

[01:06:39] I think that's the whole point of this I don't think you need that like cliche motive but yeah I think it's I think it's funny that like you're very interested in sociopaths and I think that there's

[01:06:50] like this whole phenomenon around sociopaths and um like Elizabeth Holmes Alex Murdoch but Alex Murdoch might be like just the most complicated one unfortunately for me because it just keeps going and I just don't know of another case that's just has this many threads to keep

[01:07:10] pulling at over and over Epstein maybe but Epstein was ended with a lot of it ended with his death unfortunately yeah but yeah it's just a it's a never-ending stupid story he's not the only thing

[01:07:24] to and then I'll ask you my question Murdoch and he didn't like Elizabeth Holmes followed a blueprint of how to become a Silicon Valley superstar and it's it's pretty laid out there if you

[01:07:38] want to try go get high-powered investors say you have a product it's no secret nobody can look at it it's invisible blah blah blah and then we've seen it happen before so hers fascinated me because the

[01:07:50] media went along with it and propped it up and built it up but Murdoch is just there's no there's no similar thing that I can think of except for an actual like method say in Wyoming that shoots

[01:08:06] his grandma for money I mean I mean other than that but that guy probably wasn't what Murdoch was to begin with right so if you want to watch these shows on oxygen where people are busted into trailers

[01:08:20] shoot their grandpa you know for beer money that's a different kind of crazy so here's my question for you yes was there ever a point in all this where you were scared of the amount of power

[01:08:34] he did have yeah absolutely many times I I mean from the the second I started putting my name on stories associated with the Murdochs I started to get emails of like you should be careful

[01:08:52] these people are really powerful and that's that's stuff kind of like I didn't get emails like that before like I said I was kind of a salad bar reporter I wasn't used to things

[01:09:02] but I had I had I had definitely like looked and I definitely had written about crimes and some serious cases before Murdoch came along however I had just never been warned by that many people that these people were dangerous like that it was something that

[01:09:22] was just all of the time people were coming out of nowhere saying hey be careful and it wasn't necessarily like hey I'm more or they weren't trying to be threatening they were just

[01:09:34] I think trying to look out for me but it just made it all the worse but um now I was investigating the Stephen Smith case in 2019 Liz and I actually went to this scene and we had heard just all of

[01:09:46] these rumors at that point about how powerful the Murdochs were how nobody ever investigated anything in in Hampton County and be careful if you go there because the cops are all on their

[01:09:56] side etc etc it's terrifying and we went to the site and I talk about this in my book we went to the site of where Stephen was killed and we got tailed by a highway patrolman who a highway

[01:10:10] patrol is the same agency that investigated the Stephen Smith death and did a very poor job of it and it was a very like to the point where Liz turned her car around in like a driveway

[01:10:23] and then the highway patrolman tailed us and turned his car around in the same driveway and it was just a my heart was like you know you're thinking like cousin viti you're thinking all

[01:10:36] those crazy stories of like you can just get in these small towns and they can arrest you and do whatever and we were like freaked out so bad um but it and he ended up stop following us

[01:10:51] and we crossed the county line and we're like but I think it's things like that that just cloud all of Hampton County and that that stuff is always in your head when you go there and

[01:11:02] you don't know if it's paranoia or if it's real but it's just very very nerve wracking and just the amount of people that really hype it up and really tell you to be careful and tell you

[01:11:16] these people are very dangerous and very powerful um look out that was the thing that got in my head the most and but it's also just like okay so what like what tell me what they're gonna do specifically or like tell me tell me something specific

[01:11:36] like do I need to I don't know I don't know what they'd be capable of but I would have definitely have like a ring doorbell and you're like I have all that yeah yeah I would just be

[01:11:47] afraid getting out of my car just a just a hillbilly move like somebody takes a baseball bat to my kneecap and then I got to deal with that for the rest of my life right yeah that's a terrible

[01:11:59] thing right I don't want to deal with any of that right which is probably and I talk about this in the book I started like secluding myself from a lot of the world just being

[01:12:09] hearing all these things in my head and thinking all these things like or what if they what if they like tell me and I get cut off the road and how and getting a getting a minor car accident

[01:12:19] something like that like right I don't right I didn't want any of those things to happen because I wanted to keep going and so I just kind of secluded myself from a lot of the world

[01:12:31] there for a while and was like just so into it but that was really bad too like that's really bad for your mental health and then that just makes you afraid and it ultimately I'm glad I

[01:12:42] did everything and I'm glad that this investigation hand out and I'm glad Alex Murdock is in jail where he should be however as I talk about in the book it's it just required a lot from a lot

[01:12:54] of people and I think that our society just needs to stop and think about like what we're doing here and a person like Alex Murdock should not have been able to get away with the things that

[01:13:06] he was getting away with for so many years and that's my problem right now it's just like okay well we got that guy but what about the whole system and why don't we make the system better and

[01:13:18] why don't we actually why why were we all so gracious with this man that is six foot whatever like super tall and like walks into a room like he owns place why were we all just assuming that

[01:13:30] he was fine and dandy and why was nobody checking out all these things that seemed super obvious and those are questions I keep asking and it's almost it'll drive you crazy because I feel like I'm shouting to the universe all the time like well somebody just do

[01:13:48] something about this please like I don't want another situation to come out where somebody gets away with so much for so long and believes that they can get away with anything ever anything and everything so they end up killing their family that's what happened with Alex Murdock

[01:14:05] and it's horrible so I that's where I'm at right now as far as like I'm really glad that the investigation went where it did and I'm really glad that we have our podcast and our platform and

[01:14:19] all the support from people like you however uh I just hope the people in charge actually wake up and do something and I will keep annoying them until they do all right good job I'll leave that

[01:14:33] to you I'll be telling jokes on the road somewhere thinking of you working very hard and I will not be working very hard please uh yeah keep telling your jokes because that matters too

[01:14:44] we need people to tell jokes okay well thank you so much Kathleen this was awesome all right it was great talking to you guys I love your dogs keep taking dog pictures