Leadership GPS: Teams - Are They Really All That Important?

[00:00:02] What you want, when you want it, where you want it. This is The MESH.

[00:00:07] Leadership GPS, insightful conversations about leadership and what it takes to be successful in today's rapidly changing organizations.

[00:00:17] Hello everyone and welcome to Leadership GPS here on TheMesh.tv.

[00:00:24] This is our ongoing podcast, audio show talking about the world of leadership, talking about ways to transform people from managers or just employees

[00:00:33] in an organization to strong leaders, helping those that are already in leadership positions look at ways to strengthen what they do for their organization.

[00:00:40] And really just trying to look at the art of leadership I guess as it stands and some of the things that we can help reinforce from a dos and don't standpoint

[00:00:49] and some things to keep in mind with that. With me as always my co-host on the show, Tony Jackson, Tony Dad Jackson.

[00:00:55] So I'm going to kind of get the naming down pat on this whether we go with Dad or Tony.

[00:00:59] It's about time you don't have 40 years to work with us.

[00:01:01] I've played a little bit before between and on the show, of course Tony and I, Dad and I work together on a daily basis so we get to experience that dynamic quite a bit.

[00:01:09] Both of us working in different levels of leadership. Dad how are you doing today?

[00:01:12] I'm doing okay Alan, son.

[00:01:14] Yeah Alan, son. Just refer to me as son. That's nice and formal. I like that.

[00:01:18] Of course Tony is with Drive Leadership, a part of our business that focuses on helping transform people from just managers to leaders,

[00:01:27] through strong leaders, through a very customized unique approach, working with small groups within organizations to help them move to that next level.

[00:01:34] And I'm with the Jackson group, a part that Tony Jackson started many years ago and I'm now running it which specializes in both employee and patient satisfaction surveys,

[00:01:44] customer satisfaction surveys, market perception, community perception surveys, trying to help collect data around what we want to learn from our different populations.

[00:01:53] So it's a good synergy between the two companies we have there and the two lines of work we do.

[00:01:58] But today we're bringing in kind of a new third component and yes we're keeping it in the family as we do have with us our special guest, my brother Tony's son,

[00:02:08] Dr. Brian Jackson who is the professor of performance psychology and kinesiology at Pacific University. How are you doing Brian?

[00:02:15] I'm doing great.

[00:02:16] Doing great.

[00:02:17] Hey Brian son.

[00:02:18] Thank you.

[00:02:19] Brian son, brother as I will call you brother from here on.

[00:02:21] That's right.

[00:02:22] Well Brian is not only a professor there as I mentioned but also the director of the tennis program,

[00:02:27] heading up the tennis programs for both the men and women's tennis teams there at Pacific University,

[00:02:32] located in beautiful far scrape Oregon.

[00:02:34] Yes.

[00:02:35] Which we've had the pleasure of visiting before and really enjoyed our time out there.

[00:02:39] Glad to have you here for the holidays getting family together and you and your wife Laura visiting with us again for the holiday season here.

[00:02:46] So glad to have you.

[00:02:47] Thanks. Glad to be here.

[00:02:48] We're going to be a good time to fire out the mics and let's talk a little bit about leadership because you're actually in a role where you've got a lot of expertise with leadership as well.

[00:02:55] But from a little bit different slant on things, I think it's going to be interesting to kind of see some of the change in dynamics as we talk about teams.

[00:03:01] That's our big thing we're going to focus on today is talking about the idea of teams.

[00:03:05] Not only because in leadership we deal with teams, we have teams of employees, we have teams of other leaders,

[00:03:10] but also in the sports world of course that's where we typically think of the word team, sports teams, you know, athletic teams.

[00:03:18] That's kind of the normal vernacular we have out there in society when we think of a team.

[00:03:22] So we want to talk a little bit about that structure of team and an athletic environment versus or how it's very similar to a corporate business world as well.

[00:03:31] Sound like a good topic to you guys?

[00:03:33] Yeah. Sounds great.

[00:03:34] You guys got some stuff to talk about with that?

[00:03:35] Tons of connections.

[00:03:36] Awesome.

[00:03:37] I think this would be great.

[00:03:38] So before we get started, just as a quick reminder to everybody you are listening to this podcast on themesh.tv that is our online media network of new media audio and video programs that are available for free.

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[00:04:27] Well, we always appreciate that.

[00:04:29] So guys, let's go ahead and talk about teams.

[00:04:31] And I guess that the whole message here is we're going to talk a little bit about the idea of teams.

[00:04:35] Are they really all that important in the grand scheme of things?

[00:04:38] We're in a world where individual performance is normally highlighted quite a bit, especially in the sports world.

[00:04:43] We have celebrities.

[00:04:44] We have big pro athletes that are known much more for individual performances.

[00:04:49] But we've got a business world as well where you've got star performers and people who are your great employees.

[00:04:54] But you also have this concept of teams and building teams.

[00:04:57] So let's talk a little bit about when we say teams and we talk about this idea of a team.

[00:05:02] What does that mean to you guys?

[00:05:04] When you really hear it as the term team or teamwork or teamship, whatever it may be, how does that translate?

[00:05:10] What does that mean to you in your world and what you do on a daily basis?

[00:05:13] I'll start it off because I don't know.

[00:05:15] You don't know?

[00:05:16] I don't know.

[00:05:17] I know it's weird coming from me, but let me tell you my own bias about this, Alan.

[00:05:20] I think the term team or teamship or teamwork, all those are fuzzy terms.

[00:05:26] Just about as fuzzy as the word leader, leadership, those things we talk about all the time.

[00:05:30] You get 12 people off the streets and ask them what a team is.

[00:05:34] You're going to get 12 different responses.

[00:05:35] Same thing about leadership.

[00:05:36] So I think there's a lot of common use of the term team just like leader and leadership.

[00:05:42] But really when you boil it down, I think it boils down to the fact that people say,

[00:05:47] well, I know it when I see it because I don't know really what it is sometimes.

[00:05:51] Now, to me, if I had to put a definition on it, it's a group of people working together

[00:05:57] in a very synergistic way, which means there's a larger outcome than just a combined

[00:06:02] efforts of those people towards this common goal.

[00:06:05] But that's pretty textbook stuff.

[00:06:07] Brian, what do you think?

[00:06:08] You look at it from the sports world as well as psychology.

[00:06:11] I know some.

[00:06:12] Yeah, I mean, this is something we talk about all the time because the idea of it,

[00:06:17] a group is greater than the sum of the parts.

[00:06:20] The whole reason that comes about is because there's some connection between individuals

[00:06:25] that if you took them individually and said, you do your part and then added them together,

[00:06:30] they're probably not going to be as effective as if you put them all together and have

[00:06:34] them work with each other.

[00:06:35] So it's the basketball analogy of having a great team atmosphere where people tend

[00:06:42] to work well together.

[00:06:43] You can't just go get the five best athletes that all abitically assume they're going to

[00:06:47] be a great team.

[00:06:48] So to me, the team is when they're starting to work together and you've got individuals

[00:06:54] that are trying to help one another and therefore going beyond what they could do alone.

[00:06:59] And as I said, you could take those individuals, put them on the field, put them on the

[00:07:05] court, and they may individually do really well.

[00:07:07] But there's got to be some special connection that has to develop in order for you to take

[00:07:13] that to a higher level to make it a team.

[00:07:15] You can have a group of people and group of people becomes a team I think when the

[00:07:19] interaction is there, when they make each other better.

[00:07:23] So the argument almost that and trying to look at the synergy between business world

[00:07:28] and sports world, if you hired a group of employees that were really, really good

[00:07:32] employees individually, they had great skill sets, great experience and you drop them in

[00:07:36] the place and said, okay, your job is now to all of you together do this thing.

[00:07:41] But they're not really working as a team, even though they may have a shared goal.

[00:07:47] I mean, is it still a team?

[00:07:48] Even if they're all kind of doing their own thing and there's not really any

[00:07:52] connection between them as employees.

[00:07:54] I mean, it's the same idea as sports world.

[00:07:56] I mean, you get the NBA team together and say, all right, our goal is to win

[00:07:59] the championship, but if they're all working as an individual just to get the

[00:08:03] best stats they can on the board is it still going to work as well?

[00:08:07] Well, I struggle with that, Alan, because a lot of times, you know, I practice

[00:08:11] my trade mostly in healthcare arenas, not exclusively, but mostly so.

[00:08:16] And sometimes people use the word team and healthcare setting to simply mean

[00:08:23] the people working in a similar area doing similar things, a unit, a floor,

[00:08:29] nurses on a floor, whatever it might be.

[00:08:31] But when you start spreading those out, you know, in geographic areas dispersed

[00:08:35] from each other so they don't have constant interaction and contact,

[00:08:39] the concept of team really falters there because there's not that,

[00:08:43] like you said, that not reinforcing each other.

[00:08:45] It's possible.

[00:08:47] So a lot of it has to do with the organizational dynamics, organizational

[00:08:50] structure, the leadership of those groups or teams and whether or not the clear

[00:08:55] objective is really there.

[00:08:56] And I just don't see that often enough in my world of healthcare as I'd like to.

[00:09:02] I mean, if everybody thinks I'm going to do this because it's for the good

[00:09:05] of patient care, that's the ultimate objective.

[00:09:07] That's great.

[00:09:08] A lot of times it's like, well, I'm going to do this because they told me

[00:09:11] to do it and get through the day, type of thing.

[00:09:15] Well, in the business world, if you put people in individual offices and

[00:09:20] never let them communicate with one another and say, do your job the best you can do,

[00:09:24] you have to assume there's some loss and productivity there.

[00:09:28] I mean, if there's no interactions between them, then there's no efficiency.

[00:09:31] There's no, well, if I did this, Alan may benefit from this.

[00:09:36] And if I worked with him, he's got a better way of doing it than I do.

[00:09:39] And then all of a sudden we become better.

[00:09:41] That's I think when the team develops.

[00:09:43] Right?

[00:09:44] Other than that, it's just naming someone.

[00:09:46] I mean, you could put someone in the category of salesman.

[00:09:49] Yeah.

[00:09:50] But if they're not working together, I certainly wouldn't call them a team.

[00:09:52] There's not a team of salesmen.

[00:09:53] Yeah, that's right.

[00:09:54] You might call it a sales team, but usually that's a support person

[00:09:57] with a salesperson with a marketing person, whatever.

[00:10:00] But yeah, I understand.

[00:10:02] Well, so what is the role of a leader in looking at the team

[00:10:07] and even helping build that team out?

[00:10:09] Because sounds like to me, from what you guys are saying,

[00:10:12] you get some good talent of people, you put them together,

[00:10:14] you give them a goal or mission or objective,

[00:10:17] but they're not necessarily going to be a team unless they're encouraged,

[00:10:21] motivated, structured to be so.

[00:10:24] And that sounds like that's all down to leader at that point.

[00:10:26] So when we look at building a team, what is the role of a leader

[00:10:30] in helping build that team out?

[00:10:32] What should a leader be doing to really build a good team

[00:10:35] to make it work as good as possible?

[00:10:37] Well, from my standpoint again, it starts with expectations of the leader

[00:10:40] that's made by the organization that leader works for.

[00:10:43] I don't know again that a lot of leaders are told part of what we expect

[00:10:48] of you as a leader is to develop a team mentality, a team culture

[00:10:53] within your work groups.

[00:10:56] It's assumed that they should, but it's usually about default.

[00:11:00] And going back to Brian's example, I can look at your tennis teams,

[00:11:04] for example.

[00:11:05] You call them tennis teams although they're individual performers

[00:11:08] and when they're playing singles, it's the individual effort,

[00:11:11] individual type thing.

[00:11:13] Playing doubles I can see that.

[00:11:15] That's a team of doubles.

[00:11:17] And hand signals, how they communicate with each other,

[00:11:20] knowing in advance where they're going to be in positioning

[00:11:22] and work that out in advance, that collaboration has to occur.

[00:11:26] But how do you apply that to your tennis team as individuals

[00:11:31] at the concept of team?

[00:11:33] Yeah, and that's the toughest part, right?

[00:11:35] You have a bunch of individuals who have grown up playing a sport

[00:11:38] that is individual, just like if you bring in a salesperson

[00:11:41] and they've done it on their own for many years

[00:11:44] and they're used to being self-reliant.

[00:11:47] They don't need anyone else to be able to do their crap

[00:11:50] just like my tennis players don't.

[00:11:52] But my goal is, I mean, if all I needed was to have

[00:11:55] the six best tennis players and just put them on the court,

[00:11:57] then I could go ahead and predict that we'd win matches

[00:12:00] without even practicing.

[00:12:03] But obviously, my hope is that we go beyond what we could have done.

[00:12:07] So to me, that's the beauty of a sport like tennis,

[00:12:11] track, swimming, where the individual performance

[00:12:14] is what counts.

[00:12:15] But the goal is how do you get those individuals to do better

[00:12:18] than they would be if they were on their own?

[00:12:20] Right.

[00:12:21] And in the high school ranks,

[00:12:23] they're dealing with this issue now is that you'll have,

[00:12:26] Alan and I played high school tennis together

[00:12:29] and you had individuals that nowadays,

[00:12:32] if they're really, really good

[00:12:34] and say better than everyone else that's around there,

[00:12:36] they say, I'm going to be better if I just practice on my own.

[00:12:38] If I go and practice on my own, I'll get to a certain level.

[00:12:41] But every coach will say, I need you here

[00:12:44] at least certain point in time.

[00:12:46] And why is that?

[00:12:47] Because there's some benefit that they're going to give

[00:12:49] to everyone else, even if you're the best person.

[00:12:51] You're going to have something rub off on everyone else

[00:12:54] or you're going to have this team mentality

[00:12:56] of motivation that's going to come from it.

[00:12:58] So as a coach, as a leader, to me it's the most important thing

[00:13:01] to figure out how do you get individuals to stay motivated

[00:13:04] with one another to realize that what they do

[00:13:07] could help someone else in getting their best out of their game.

[00:13:12] Let me get into your question about the role of the leader

[00:13:16] in making a team.

[00:13:17] Does that mean a trickle down effect from the leader?

[00:13:19] It has to start with the leader?

[00:13:21] The language, the user word of while ago, we a lot.

[00:13:25] The individual player is playing their game

[00:13:28] so that we win the match and we can predict

[00:13:30] that we will win this match and all that.

[00:13:32] You didn't say so that Robbie will win his match,

[00:13:36] that type of thing.

[00:13:38] So is it the role of the leader to trickle it down?

[00:13:41] Well I think it's the role of the leader

[00:13:43] to be part of that team.

[00:13:44] I mean I think that's the important piece

[00:13:46] is that the leader has to be a member of that team.

[00:13:49] I can't say that this is the team

[00:13:52] and I am someone who directs the team

[00:13:54] because I think I'm not listening to my own coaching

[00:13:58] at that point, right?

[00:13:59] I mean I'm telling them that you're the number one player

[00:14:02] but you can make the number two player better

[00:14:04] and if you guys work together

[00:14:05] you're going to be better than you would be alone.

[00:14:07] Same thing for me, I would assume

[00:14:09] that if I'm not working with them,

[00:14:10] if I'm not helping them achieve their best

[00:14:12] then I'm not really doing the team mentality.

[00:14:14] I could be the best coach I could be

[00:14:16] without working with them.

[00:14:18] I mean I could go and recruit

[00:14:19] and I could go and manage

[00:14:20] and I could go and budget

[00:14:21] and I can do all the things I need to do

[00:14:23] but if I'm not working with them

[00:14:25] then that's the team itself is suffering, right?

[00:14:28] So to me the leader has to be part of that team

[00:14:30] and also we have to kind of talk about

[00:14:32] what leaders are we speaking about

[00:14:35] because in my world there's many leaders.

[00:14:38] There's not just the coach,

[00:14:39] coaches usually the one that the buck stops here

[00:14:41] but you know it's the...

[00:14:43] In the sports psychology world

[00:14:44] we call it the difference between

[00:14:45] appointed leaders and emerging leaders.

[00:14:47] Appointed and emerging.

[00:14:49] Appointed, yeah.

[00:14:50] And I'm an appointed leader, right?

[00:14:52] I've been given a title,

[00:14:53] I've been given a job

[00:14:54] and I have things that I need to accomplish

[00:14:57] but then you also have emerging leaders

[00:14:59] which are usually players, team members

[00:15:01] that step up and actually make everyone better

[00:15:05] even though they may not be asked

[00:15:06] to make someone better.

[00:15:07] So usually our team captains

[00:15:09] there's people that I don't just

[00:15:11] go and point to them and say

[00:15:12] you're a captain,

[00:15:13] I wait to see who is the catalyst

[00:15:16] who's the one that's going

[00:15:17] to make everybody better.

[00:15:18] Can't there be toxic leaders?

[00:15:19] I know that's one topic

[00:15:20] we'll be talking about later on

[00:15:21] with somebody from an officer

[00:15:23] from the Army later on.

[00:15:24] But I mean,

[00:15:26] we're assuming that the term leader

[00:15:28] is a positive one.

[00:15:30] But you can be a leader

[00:15:33] towards evil objectives

[00:15:35] or bad things, right?

[00:15:37] And that's that guy that sticks out

[00:15:39] in your team that's lousy

[00:15:42] to be around,

[00:15:43] he's not good for the team

[00:15:44] but everybody listens to him.

[00:15:46] They're all affected by him.

[00:15:47] Is that true or not true?

[00:15:48] Totally, yeah.

[00:15:49] And I think the term motivation

[00:15:53] means a lot.

[00:15:54] I mean actually just means to move

[00:15:56] someone in a particular direction.

[00:15:58] Doesn't necessarily mean to move them

[00:16:00] in a positive direction.

[00:16:01] So I can have team emerging team leaders

[00:16:05] that is that individual who is lazy

[00:16:07] and really wants his position given to him

[00:16:10] and he wants everyone else

[00:16:11] to feel the same way.

[00:16:12] And so all of a sudden he's the bad apple

[00:16:14] that causes everyone else to have issues.

[00:16:17] So all of a sudden I have a leader

[00:16:19] that's motivating them in the wrong way,

[00:16:21] motivating them to question my authority,

[00:16:24] motivating them to try to get out

[00:16:28] of doing some of the things that we know

[00:16:30] is going to be helpful.

[00:16:31] He's the one that on the side will tell

[00:16:32] a team member if you're one of a colleague,

[00:16:34] I'm not going to practice today.

[00:16:36] You know, you ought to go practice.

[00:16:37] Come on let's go whatever, right?

[00:16:39] Well he's the individual that

[00:16:40] in the corporate world that's

[00:16:41] doing the hallway conference

[00:16:43] and doing the hallway conversations, right?

[00:16:45] When we do our surveys with employees

[00:16:48] and we ask specifically for those new employees

[00:16:50] in an organization,

[00:16:52] when they join their department

[00:16:53] or work group or unit,

[00:16:55] you know, were they welcome to buy

[00:16:56] the other employees there?

[00:16:58] Do they feel supported

[00:16:59] and positive by the other employees?

[00:17:01] You'll normally find there's this pockets

[00:17:03] where you've got some of those employees

[00:17:05] that maybe been there a really long time,

[00:17:06] maybe a little more jaded than others.

[00:17:08] Have that toxic mentality to it

[00:17:10] and it affects the new people

[00:17:12] coming into the team pretty quickly.

[00:17:14] That's where the leader's role,

[00:17:16] the true leader has to really be

[00:17:18] a lot more aggressive in making sure that

[00:17:20] their term of leadership,

[00:17:22] their tone of leadership and teamwork

[00:17:24] permeates throughout the department

[00:17:26] to kind of counteract.

[00:17:27] So that's the appointed leader you're talking about?

[00:17:28] Yeah, like Brian was talking about.

[00:17:29] Yeah, you run the risk of letting

[00:17:31] an emerging leader in a department

[00:17:33] or work area be that toxic leader

[00:17:36] and all of a sudden if the appointed leader

[00:17:38] isn't able to control that,

[00:17:39] he can get out of hand pretty quick.

[00:17:41] I would imagine the same way in a team too.

[00:17:43] Yeah, it's exactly that way.

[00:17:44] And then you also have the individuals

[00:17:46] that feel threatened

[00:17:49] by the person you appoint as a leader

[00:17:51] that happens often, right?

[00:17:52] The person that's been there for a long time,

[00:17:54] they think they need to be the leader.

[00:17:56] And then sometimes even the person

[00:17:58] that you do appoint, all of a sudden

[00:18:00] has kind of a God complex

[00:18:02] that comes about that says,

[00:18:03] well, I'm going to now force everyone

[00:18:05] to do that. Well, in my area

[00:18:07] you often are appointing leaders as captains

[00:18:09] or as a person

[00:18:14] who's in charge of doing some workouts in the morning.

[00:18:16] They have no training

[00:18:18] in being a leader whatsoever.

[00:18:19] So you're hoping you pick someone

[00:18:21] that has natural ability to be able to do that.

[00:18:23] But oftentimes you have a toxic leader

[00:18:26] that emerges and if your team cohesion,

[00:18:30] if your culture has not been strong enough

[00:18:33] then it will take over.

[00:18:35] And that's why it's really important, I think,

[00:18:37] to develop that team culture

[00:18:39] in your environment that's strong enough

[00:18:41] to those individuals get pushed out right away.

[00:18:44] They're not allowed to be toxic.

[00:18:48] So, and this is a loaded question

[00:18:50] because I know there's easy answer to this first part of it.

[00:18:52] But obviously there's a lot of benefits

[00:18:54] to having a team,

[00:18:56] having people work in a team

[00:18:58] as opposed to working individually.

[00:19:00] But just humor me, what are some of those real advantages,

[00:19:03] some really sharp advantages that we get

[00:19:05] when people are working together,

[00:19:07] the leaders are on the same page,

[00:19:09] everybody's working together.

[00:19:11] What really accomplishes, what can come out of that,

[00:19:13] ideally in any situation?

[00:19:15] Well, one that we kind of alluded to

[00:19:17] is positive peer pressure.

[00:19:19] Peer pressure sometimes can be a negative thing obviously

[00:19:21] but it depends on the direction.

[00:19:23] But positive peer pressure,

[00:19:25] I want to be a part of that group.

[00:19:27] I want to be a part of that group.

[00:19:29] I want to do like they do

[00:19:31] because they're somebody I admire.

[00:19:33] But that really comes about after the fact sometimes

[00:19:35] because first of all there has to be some synergy

[00:19:37] between people as individuals.

[00:19:39] I've never seen a team made up of people

[00:19:41] that don't like each other, okay?

[00:19:43] In fact it's been said,

[00:19:45] I wrote them down a few minutes ago,

[00:19:47] in order to have a cohesive team

[00:19:49] when it sticks together through thick and thin,

[00:19:51] bad years on the tennis courts

[00:19:53] and that type of thing, losing records or whatever.

[00:19:55] Not that you would know anything about that, Brian.

[00:19:57] Oh no, no, yeah.

[00:19:59] I know you wanted me to bring it up that how

[00:20:01] what a great coach you are

[00:20:03] and how you've turned that team around.

[00:20:05] You're exactly right.

[00:20:07] And you have done a miraculous job with that team out there.

[00:20:09] Maybe it's the notice that you a minute ago.

[00:20:11] Please bring this up.

[00:20:13] But the four factors that make it for a cohesive team

[00:20:16] are frequent, substantive interaction,

[00:20:18] meaning something happens because they're together

[00:20:21] and communicate well together.

[00:20:23] But it has to be frequent.

[00:20:25] You can't communicate well

[00:20:27] with substantive interaction

[00:20:29] from four corners of the world.

[00:20:31] You have to have norms

[00:20:33] or expectations

[00:20:35] to be a part of this team, you do this.

[00:20:37] Are you do these things this way?

[00:20:39] Are we feel this way?

[00:20:41] Those are the norms, expected behaviors.

[00:20:43] They're not always stated, they're not always known,

[00:20:45] they're not written down.

[00:20:47] Sometimes they're just assumed, okay?

[00:20:49] It's like whether you wear a tie to a meeting or not.

[00:20:51] So you don't stand out.

[00:20:53] There's a group of norms on them.

[00:20:55] Teams have a way that evolves

[00:20:57] about how we make decisions together.

[00:20:59] How we make decisions.

[00:21:01] And it's not just voting and that sort of stuff.

[00:21:03] But something happens when a team is functioning well,

[00:21:05] where the voice of one represents the voice of all.

[00:21:07] Okay?

[00:21:09] And then the last one is sentiment.

[00:21:11] That sounds like a mushy term,

[00:21:13] but sentiment is not sentimentality.

[00:21:15] Sentiment meaning,

[00:21:17] I like the other people here on my team.

[00:21:19] I don't have any problems with them.

[00:21:21] You know, they might be a standout in there,

[00:21:23] but for the most part, I like these people as people.

[00:21:25] Right.

[00:21:27] Teams are formed around that a lot of times.

[00:21:29] And I'm just,

[00:21:31] that social aspect of being a team,

[00:21:33] I think is a real critical

[00:21:35] missing difference sometimes because

[00:21:37] in the fast-paced world

[00:21:39] of like healthcare work right now

[00:21:41] where everybody's stretched thin,

[00:21:43] they don't have time to develop those relationship issues sometimes.

[00:21:45] I mean they should.

[00:21:47] They want to and we know employees

[00:21:49] want to from our surveys Island.

[00:21:51] But I don't know if that's there.

[00:21:53] Those four ingredients have to be present

[00:21:55] to have a cohesive team

[00:21:57] from what the textbooks say.

[00:21:59] Well, the only thing I would maybe add

[00:22:01] or even adjust to that is that

[00:22:03] I'm not sure I agree that everyone has

[00:22:05] to like each other to be part of an effective team.

[00:22:07] Okay, well thanks for your time today, Brian.

[00:22:09] I appreciate that.

[00:22:11] We'll invite you back maybe some other time.

[00:22:13] No, I do like you too.

[00:22:15] So we're a team here?

[00:22:17] But I will say I've been part

[00:22:19] of the parts of effective teams.

[00:22:21] Now maybe they weren't as effective as they could have been.

[00:22:23] Maybe that's the issue where you didn't necessarily like each other,

[00:22:25] but you do have to respect each other.

[00:22:27] And to me with teams and that's one of the hard parts is

[00:22:29] I would imagine there's a lot of people

[00:22:31] that step into a leadership position

[00:22:33] where they don't necessarily get to choose

[00:22:35] who's underneath them.

[00:22:37] So okay, you're appointed as a manager now

[00:22:39] and here are your people.

[00:22:41] Well, if all of a sudden you don't like those people

[00:22:43] doesn't mean necessarily that you can't be effective

[00:22:45] but I think there has to be some respect

[00:22:47] that I have in and usually with my team

[00:22:49] there's a talk at the beginning of the year

[00:22:51] that said, you know, the person next to you

[00:22:53] if you don't respect them we're in trouble.

[00:22:55] Because if you don't respect what they're going to do

[00:22:57] on the court, you don't have to like them

[00:22:59] to where you hang out together when you get off the court.

[00:23:01] You don't have to have this as your best friend.

[00:23:03] It helps, right?

[00:23:05] If they are your best friend then we are

[00:23:07] we're going to be even better.

[00:23:09] But if you have individuals

[00:23:11] who don't necessarily like each other

[00:23:13] but they can respect

[00:23:15] that person has a job to do and they do it well

[00:23:17] I have a job to do, I do it well

[00:23:19] I don't necessarily need to go and interact with them

[00:23:21] every day. I think you can still be

[00:23:23] effective. Are you going to be as good?

[00:23:25] No, right, but I do think that you can be effective

[00:23:27] that it's harder to be effective

[00:23:29] and that's one of the biggest challenges

[00:23:31] that I've ever had as a coach

[00:23:33] is when you have individuals that don't get along

[00:23:35] to try to find some way or another

[00:23:37] that they can cross paths

[00:23:39] and still respect each other

[00:23:41] and that's extremely tough.

[00:23:43] So how active are you in trying to make that

[00:23:45] different for them? Are you

[00:23:47] command and control on top of leadership

[00:23:49] at that point in time? You guys get your act together

[00:23:51] or is it you nurture it, you grow it

[00:23:53] you force them to interact with each other

[00:23:55] Yeah, I find the forcing

[00:23:57] the forced interaction doesn't work

[00:23:59] I've tried it

[00:24:01] unsuccessfully

[00:24:03] I think to say

[00:24:05] an example

[00:24:07] I really need you to

[00:24:09] can you call this person

[00:24:11] to hang out at some point? Can you get the team to hang out together

[00:24:13] this weekend

[00:24:15] and if a coach is asking that to happen

[00:24:17] it's like mom and dad asking you

[00:24:19] to go hang out with a kid that you don't really like

[00:24:21] as you grow into a new world

[00:24:23] You guys are the same age, you should go play outside each other

[00:24:25] But

[00:24:27] I think there's creative ways of going about it

[00:24:29] things like

[00:24:31] in my world

[00:24:33] it becomes very easy to have

[00:24:35] group activities that go on in practice

[00:24:37] I mean it's an individual sport

[00:24:39] that we do generally is

[00:24:41] the person on the other side I want to beat them

[00:24:43] and they're on my team

[00:24:45] but in practice having ways where

[00:24:47] putting them on the doubles team together

[00:24:49] putting them in a drill where if you don't do this

[00:24:51] then this person doesn't win

[00:24:53] then all of a sudden you start to

[00:24:55] foster that interaction

[00:24:57] some of that has to happen outside of the workplace

[00:24:59] you do things creative

[00:25:01] and I would imagine it's the same thing

[00:25:03] it's not like you can go and say

[00:25:05] I'm a manager, I've got two people that don't seem to get along together

[00:25:07] let's get more meetings together

[00:25:09] let's get more holiday parties together

[00:25:11] You guys go have lunch together

[00:25:13] I'll give you a good example of that

[00:25:15] I'm working with a nursing group right now

[00:25:17] in one hospital where one nursing manager

[00:25:19] of course their VP wants them all to be a team

[00:25:21] of nurse managers

[00:25:23] it's a noble thing to do

[00:25:25] but they're not

[00:25:27] and one person really stands out

[00:25:29] she's been a superstar

[00:25:31] in fact she's been held up by the VP

[00:25:33] this is the model

[00:25:35] so much so that the other people don't like her

[00:25:37] there's resentment

[00:25:39] so when they detected there was a lack of teamwork in the group

[00:25:41] the VP said let's all go get together

[00:25:43] one evening, go out to, out back

[00:25:45] or whatever and have a beer and eat together

[00:25:47] have a social time together

[00:25:49] let her hair down

[00:25:51] this one manager told me

[00:25:53] she said I'm not going

[00:25:55] I said why not

[00:25:57] she said first of all I don't like beer

[00:25:59] and secondly I don't like those people

[00:26:01] that's why

[00:26:03] the best of world world didn't happen there

[00:26:05] so I can see that

[00:26:07] it's a complex world it really is

[00:26:09] it relates to leadership

[00:26:11] it relates to the individuals in there

[00:26:13] it relates to how you

[00:26:15] motivate people in one direction

[00:26:17] and how you get them to sacrifice something of themselves

[00:26:19] I mean the thing about take one for the team

[00:26:21] you know

[00:26:23] here's a good example

[00:26:25] I could never envision

[00:26:27] a group of true entrepreneurs

[00:26:29] being a team

[00:26:31] the nature of the entrepreneur

[00:26:33] the individual performer type of thing

[00:26:35] it's just contrary to

[00:26:37] it's totally contrary

[00:26:39] to the idea of a team

[00:26:41] sharing, interacting

[00:26:43] releasing some of your own control

[00:26:45] in favor of others all those types of things

[00:26:47] Brian let me ask

[00:26:49] a question then I don't know

[00:26:51] I want to interject here Alan Steer but

[00:26:53] I was curious about the

[00:26:55] effect of rewards

[00:26:57] and recognition about teams

[00:26:59] team members

[00:27:01] do you recognize teams for their accomplishment

[00:27:03] or do you recognize

[00:27:05] and reward individuals for their accomplishments

[00:27:07] I think you have to do both

[00:27:09] I think you have to do both but I

[00:27:11] think the individuals

[00:27:13] well the sport world has changed

[00:27:15] dramatically in the last

[00:27:17] 30 or 40 years to where

[00:27:19] now people are ultra sensitive

[00:27:21] about giving the most valuable player award

[00:27:23] or ultra sensitive about giving

[00:27:25] the first place award

[00:27:27] I want to make sure that there is a distribution of awards

[00:27:29] now there is a participation award

[00:27:31] sportsmanship award

[00:27:33] in the reason being

[00:27:35] they didn't want people singled out

[00:27:37] and they didn't want those individuals

[00:27:39] everyone else to feel as though they weren't worthy

[00:27:41] you got down on the list too

[00:27:43] and you get the award for being the last person to get an award

[00:27:45] you were

[00:27:49] and I think that's backfiring

[00:27:51] a little bit now

[00:27:53] you don't have individuals that are

[00:27:55] totally driven to

[00:27:57] be successful and kind of have that

[00:27:59] fire about them

[00:28:01] I think it's important

[00:28:03] to have a setup

[00:28:05] where their individual

[00:28:07] performance actually does stand out

[00:28:09] and they get recognized

[00:28:11] whether that's rewarded or whether that's just

[00:28:13] accountable for what they do

[00:28:15] but at the same time I think you have to show

[00:28:17] that there is a benefit for having a team

[00:28:19] classic example

[00:28:21] of this I had a few years ago

[00:28:23] where you mentioned you want

[00:28:25] the entrepreneurial people

[00:28:27] who really are not team players

[00:28:29] well I think

[00:28:31] that a lot of times as a coach

[00:28:33] people always think that the coach wants

[00:28:35] to have people that are

[00:28:37] so for the team that they don't care about themselves anymore

[00:28:39] so sometimes they try to pretend like

[00:28:41] oh no that's okay go ahead and take my spot

[00:28:43] and tennis is a great example

[00:28:45] of this right we only get six people to play

[00:28:47] six starting spots and

[00:28:49] that's seven persons

[00:28:51] we have on a team I would say twelve guys on a team

[00:28:53] so like half your team actually gets to play

[00:28:55] yep half will get to play

[00:28:57] as a starting position

[00:28:59] and you know as a coach

[00:29:01] it's hard but you want

[00:29:03] you kind of want both sides you want someone who really

[00:29:05] wants the team to do well and understands

[00:29:07] if they're number seven that day

[00:29:09] but you also don't want

[00:29:11] that person wanting to be number seven

[00:29:13] and there was a situation

[00:29:15] a couple of years ago where we were on a spring break

[00:29:17] trip we were playing

[00:29:19] multiple matches a day and

[00:29:21] about the third match

[00:29:23] I looked at one of my players who were playing number six

[00:29:25] and said

[00:29:27] we need to win this match

[00:29:29] and number six is going to come down to your spot

[00:29:31] as being a very important play

[00:29:33] do you want that spot right now

[00:29:35] and kind of he paused and I think he was

[00:29:37] overthinking it thinking what does he want me to say

[00:29:39] and he said you know what

[00:29:41] Colin who was the person to number seven

[00:29:43] he's playing pretty good why don't you let him take my spot

[00:29:45] hmm

[00:29:47] that sounds really great

[00:29:49] and as a coach sometimes you think wow you just made my job easy

[00:29:51] hmm

[00:29:53] but that

[00:29:55] made me look differently of that individual

[00:29:57] for this season and he actually was

[00:29:59] benched for the next three or four matches because I wasn't sure

[00:30:01] if I could trust that he really wanted to be out there

[00:30:03] and had the killer instinct to be able to do it

[00:30:05] there's got to be some individual fire in there

[00:30:07] and the tough part this is where the leader

[00:30:09] the tough part of being a leader comes in

[00:30:11] is you want them to be upset

[00:30:13] they don't get that spot you want them to be

[00:30:15] you know you want them to be shooting for that

[00:30:17] recognition

[00:30:19] and you want them not necessarily to be happy if they don't get it

[00:30:21] but you also want them to respect the process

[00:30:23] of the fact that they didn't earn it

[00:30:25] well it's almost like in a business world

[00:30:27] you've got a team of people

[00:30:29] you've got sales goals, you've got objectives

[00:30:31] you've got project goals

[00:30:33] somebody would like a promotion

[00:30:35] there's a promotion opportunity available

[00:30:37] you won't a team

[00:30:39] you won't members of your team that are all warning that level

[00:30:41] and I can see in the same situation

[00:30:43] where somebody steps back and say

[00:30:45] well this person is probably better for that role than I am

[00:30:47] so that person needs to get promoted

[00:30:49] you don't want people who are going to be so passive about it

[00:30:51] but you do want people like you said

[00:30:53] that if they get passed over

[00:30:55] and somebody else gets promoted

[00:30:57] it's like I get it, I understand

[00:30:59] it's best for the team

[00:31:01] I'm going to keep working individually

[00:31:03] on what I want to get better on

[00:31:05] but it's not going to turn into a sour grape situation

[00:31:07] because somebody else got chosen

[00:31:09] it's an issue of are you going to get passed over

[00:31:11] and be motivated

[00:31:13] to do better next time which means

[00:31:15] the leader has now done their job

[00:31:17] in my opinion, in the sports world

[00:31:19] having someone not start

[00:31:21] or having someone not get a position they want

[00:31:23] but be totally motivated

[00:31:25] to come back and be better

[00:31:27] all of a sudden you've done a great job as a coach

[00:31:29] and you get the person to turn around and say

[00:31:31] you know what, forget this guy

[00:31:33] I'm not really interested in working for them anymore

[00:31:35] because obviously if they're not

[00:31:37] willing to be honest with themselves

[00:31:39] and realize why they didn't get it

[00:31:41] then I think you've got a problem

[00:31:43] I think we're close to zeroing in

[00:31:45] on one of the main differences about

[00:31:47] team-ship and team players

[00:31:49] in a sports venue

[00:31:51] any type of sport

[00:31:53] and in a

[00:31:55] for me healthcare environment

[00:31:57] or business healthcare, whatever

[00:31:59] because the recognition that sports players

[00:32:01] get for doing well

[00:32:03] comes in two levels all the time

[00:32:05] my one and the lost record

[00:32:07] our team's one and the lost record

[00:32:09] our position in the conference, those types of things

[00:32:11] our position in championship

[00:32:13] that's automatic reinforcement

[00:32:15] and saying okay we're getting there

[00:32:17] we're getting there type of thing

[00:32:19] or I did well

[00:32:21] that's ever present

[00:32:23] you mentioned in Minnegoo Island about getting that promotion

[00:32:25] well you know in healthcare sometimes

[00:32:27] and other business world

[00:32:29] healthcare, the promotions are not something that takes place every day

[00:32:31] every week or whatever

[00:32:33] so how do you keep a person who's not

[00:32:35] getting promoted

[00:32:37] to still think team first

[00:32:39] and part of that is

[00:32:41] what kind of measures do we give them to say

[00:32:43] we're doing well

[00:32:45] as a team

[00:32:47] and a lot of times we don't have those metrics

[00:32:49] I mean okay we

[00:32:51] discharge so many patients, well yeah

[00:32:53] but that's what they're here for

[00:32:55] get out of the hospital type of thing

[00:32:57] our business metrics

[00:32:59] okay we did well financially last month

[00:33:01] okay but

[00:33:03] did we or what was the cause

[00:33:05] as much foes your

[00:33:07] terminology in terms of recognition

[00:33:09] and therefore reward for the individual

[00:33:11] and the team I think

[00:33:13] in non-sports venues that's why I like

[00:33:15] the idea of talking about

[00:33:17] team ship and because I think

[00:33:19] it's a purest form of team ship when you talk about

[00:33:21] sports analogies, I really do

[00:33:23] I can nitpick and say well

[00:33:25] track and field

[00:33:27] that's not a team unless you're on the Olympic team

[00:33:29] or unless you're on a relay team

[00:33:31] but you're right

[00:33:33] it's about how we practice, how we train together

[00:33:35] how we make each other better

[00:33:37] even at things that we don't do the same way

[00:33:39] better high jumper

[00:33:41] because this guy is a better broad jumper

[00:33:43] because we train together

[00:33:45] we push each other, I like that

[00:33:47] I just don't know where that fits in

[00:33:49] my world

[00:33:51] and that's the part that you guys will have to

[00:33:53] educate me on

[00:33:55] it seems like

[00:33:57] how do you go about getting

[00:33:59] an individual's performance

[00:34:01] and it's not just the outcome

[00:34:03] that's the other thing with sports is I think we've done a really good job of

[00:34:05] is recognizing

[00:34:07] that someone's

[00:34:09] attitude

[00:34:11] really made a difference for our team

[00:34:13] giving things like most inspirational

[00:34:15] at the end of the year

[00:34:17] well maybe you didn't win everything

[00:34:19] and that's certainly the win loss that didn't show up

[00:34:21] but yet there are ways that you made us better

[00:34:23] and I think

[00:34:25] that's got to be important in the business world

[00:34:27] because again the promotion is not always going to be there

[00:34:29] you may have someone who

[00:34:31] as a support staff

[00:34:33] and they don't get to have the glory of the sale

[00:34:35] but that support staff

[00:34:37] somehow

[00:34:39] there needs to be some accountability

[00:34:41] as to how does what

[00:34:43] they do on a day-to-day basis

[00:34:45] result in our success

[00:34:47] I like to use a term with managers a lot

[00:34:49] about recognizing employees' contributions

[00:34:51] rather than their performance

[00:34:53] performance means how to do against that measure

[00:34:55] contributions are what I brought to the table

[00:34:57] to make a difference

[00:34:59] let's think for a minute right now

[00:35:01] of course it's holiday time when this real time

[00:35:03] is holiday time Christmas time for us

[00:35:05] and the movie that's out now that everybody's going to

[00:35:07] Brian I know you've seen it with family

[00:35:09] Alan you've seen it yet

[00:35:11] Louis Amperini's

[00:35:13] Unbroken

[00:35:15] Well shame on you

[00:35:19] If you want to just sit and drink a coffee for a minute

[00:35:21] we'll talk

[00:35:23] let Brian and me talk

[00:35:25] he's back out there

[00:35:27] Alan's son

[00:35:29] Louis Amperini when you talk about making

[00:35:31] everybody else better that's not a sports

[00:35:33] environment he started out in sports

[00:35:35] but that was individualized

[00:35:37] there's no doubt about that

[00:35:39] but in a prison camp

[00:35:41] his strength, his endurance, his standing up

[00:35:43] to his captors in front of the others

[00:35:45] do you think that helped them endure their

[00:35:47] captivity more

[00:35:49] would hope so, we think so

[00:35:51] I'm thinking so too

[00:35:53] to me that's influence

[00:35:55] of a team, positive team

[00:35:57] player not taking one

[00:35:59] for the team but by doing

[00:36:01] so well themselves

[00:36:03] they're an inspiration to others

[00:36:05] let me give you another sports connection

[00:36:07] same idea

[00:36:09] that was okay

[00:36:11] but let's relate it

[00:36:13] to that situation

[00:36:15] is that

[00:36:17] social facilitation

[00:36:19] we've done research on this

[00:36:21] it's the most

[00:36:23] obvious research

[00:36:25] finding that you can have

[00:36:27] if you're around someone

[00:36:29] your performance is going to be different

[00:36:31] if someone else is around than if you were alone

[00:36:33] period, every time we tested it

[00:36:35] it's come true

[00:36:37] here's a

[00:36:39] force plate

[00:36:41] and I want you to push on it as hard as you can

[00:36:43] and see how much force you can create

[00:36:45] if you're alone doing that

[00:36:47] you're going to do it at a much lower level

[00:36:49] than if four of us were sitting here watching it

[00:36:51] there's this idea of facilitating your performance

[00:36:53] by having other people around

[00:36:55] that automatically tells us

[00:36:57] we're going to do better

[00:36:59] or we're actually going to do differently

[00:37:01] there's also a social

[00:37:03] degradation that happens

[00:37:05] but we're going to do differently if we have other people around us

[00:37:07] so there's the benefit of

[00:37:09] if I'm coaching this track team

[00:37:11] then there's a reason why I want to have practice

[00:37:13] with somebody around and not just

[00:37:15] let me go take you as an individual and go work with you

[00:37:17] I can make you the best I could possibly do

[00:37:19] but if you're also able to look over

[00:37:21] and see someone else doing really well

[00:37:23] and it motivates you to go faster

[00:37:25] it all came about from cycling

[00:37:27] research and they found that

[00:37:29] I could put someone on a track

[00:37:31] on a bike and they

[00:37:33] would tell them to go as fast as they could go

[00:37:35] and they would have a certain performance

[00:37:37] but yet if I put another person out there with them

[00:37:39] all of a sudden they go faster

[00:37:41] there's more than 100% that they can give

[00:37:43] so there's some benefit for having someone else

[00:37:45] doing the same thing you're doing

[00:37:47] or doing it well to motivate you

[00:37:49] and I think that's where

[00:37:51] businesses, putting people in silos

[00:37:53] is usually I think there's some

[00:37:55] downsides to that

[00:37:57] that's a no-no, yeah

[00:37:59] so you want people being around others

[00:38:01] so that situation in the movie

[00:38:03] there's got to be some benefit for me seeing

[00:38:05] someone else perform

[00:38:07] and me getting motivated

[00:38:09] is not a good thing if I've got behaviors

[00:38:11] that are happening on my team then everybody else

[00:38:13] is seeing those

[00:38:15] you're pointing out something that's really a problem

[00:38:17] again I'm coming from the healthcare world

[00:38:19] mostly but I imagine it's true

[00:38:21] in all areas

[00:38:23] and that is

[00:38:25] so you as a leader

[00:38:27] do you try to build in

[00:38:29] entertain competition

[00:38:31] I mean because we've always

[00:38:33] heard and been said you don't do the silos

[00:38:35] here's nursing, here's radiology

[00:38:37] here's lab, here's environmental services

[00:38:39] and so on and so forth

[00:38:41] at the silos we've got to work together as a team

[00:38:43] but rarely does that come about

[00:38:45] the objectives aren't the same sometimes

[00:38:47] and

[00:38:49] when we're giving results back

[00:38:51] for a survey for example

[00:38:53] we're told really don't show

[00:38:55] to the whole group everybody scores

[00:38:57] by department on certain things

[00:38:59] because it builds that competition

[00:39:01] like well yeah, yeah that way because such

[00:39:03] and such and all

[00:39:05] there's a mixed message there I think

[00:39:07] building in competition

[00:39:09] as a means to

[00:39:11] social facilitate betterment

[00:39:13] versus

[00:39:15] building in

[00:39:17] competition as a means of people's resentment

[00:39:19] right

[00:39:21] I think a little bit of the difference there is that

[00:39:23] in a lot of organizations, businesses

[00:39:25] you don't always have those finely

[00:39:27] tuned teams where everybody's on the same page

[00:39:29] there's an objective

[00:39:31] a goal that everybody's striving for

[00:39:33] and I think if you had that situation

[00:39:35] across the board you could show

[00:39:37] metrics across each of them

[00:39:39] and say look here's who's at the top

[00:39:41] here's who's at the bottom

[00:39:43] kind of like ranking on a team

[00:39:45] this is our number one player

[00:39:47] this is our number seven player

[00:39:49] but the difference in an athletic team is that

[00:39:51] those individuals who have been brought together

[00:39:53] hopefully the goal is very focused

[00:39:55] it's a very targeted goal it relies

[00:39:57] on both individual and team performance

[00:39:59] if we could create that same environment

[00:40:01] across an organization

[00:40:03] then I think having that healthy

[00:40:05] in competition between groups

[00:40:07] and teams is good

[00:40:09] I think it would actually work and I think it would self motivate

[00:40:11] unfortunately a lot of organizations are not blessed enough to have

[00:40:13] every team

[00:40:15] working with a really solid everybody

[00:40:17] and the group is on board

[00:40:19] so then it becomes a little more

[00:40:21] nitpicking and infighting

[00:40:23] and resentment as opposed to an encourager

[00:40:25] to get stronger as a team

[00:40:27] that's kind of the difference I see

[00:40:29] because there are some sports teams

[00:40:31] where having the ranked people

[00:40:33] on the team doesn't work

[00:40:35] because they're not all ballading in

[00:40:37] they're all performing at a very individual level

[00:40:39] and you got that same infighting and resentment

[00:40:41] it's just I think the ideal model

[00:40:43] is you should be able to show

[00:40:45] how each team is performing against each other

[00:40:47] as an encourager to the other ones

[00:40:49] but that doesn't always work because of the teams

[00:40:51] that we've got built right now

[00:40:53] well and I would say that this is where

[00:40:55] a sport like tennis is different

[00:40:57] is that the beauty of

[00:40:59] and honestly I think it would be easier

[00:41:01] to motivate players on a track team

[00:41:03] than it is on a tennis team

[00:41:05] mainly because

[00:41:07] or I shouldn't say motivate, motivates going to be there

[00:41:09] but I think to get them to work together as a team

[00:41:11] because you can say

[00:41:13] well you're the sprinter

[00:41:15] and you being a good sprinter isn't taking away

[00:41:17] from our good long distance person over here

[00:41:19] just like you can be a really good sales person

[00:41:21] and this person

[00:41:23] is our administrative staff

[00:41:25] and it can be excellent in your field

[00:41:27] and not take away from one another

[00:41:29] and it doesn't compete with one another

[00:41:31] and tennis is really, really tough

[00:41:33] to be able to say well you're number one

[00:41:35] and you're number two

[00:41:37] number two knows that they're less than number one

[00:41:39] I'm not saying you're this

[00:41:41] that's why a lot of times it's just tennis

[00:41:43] and think of number two

[00:41:45] if they're golfers

[00:41:47] maybe two is higher than one

[00:41:49] but I think that that's where

[00:41:51] my struggle often becomes

[00:41:53] for them, well you're our double specialist

[00:41:55] you're our single specialist

[00:41:57] and all of a sudden they've got ways of finding

[00:41:59] unique contributions but

[00:42:01] you guys tell me but in a corporate world

[00:42:03] if you created a team

[00:42:05] let's say in

[00:42:07] your current company

[00:42:09] would it be all the sales people together

[00:42:11] because now they're competing

[00:42:13] or would it be a sales person

[00:42:15] with a

[00:42:17] administrative staff

[00:42:19] how loud I'm talking about that

[00:42:21] our teams are based on

[00:42:23] function as opposed to

[00:42:25] and objective

[00:42:27] of our service lines

[00:42:29] as opposed to everybody that's in sales

[00:42:31] is a team together, everybody that's project managers

[00:42:33] is a team together

[00:42:35] so if we have a team for our employee survey work

[00:42:37] we have a team for our patient survey work

[00:42:39] there is a sales person in that team

[00:42:41] there's project managers in that team

[00:42:43] there's IT person in that team

[00:42:45] so you can't have the best

[00:42:47] of somebody in that team

[00:42:49] and if they know two person

[00:42:51] the goal is that they know at the end of the year

[00:42:53] we want to hit these numbers, we want to have this

[00:42:55] performance

[00:42:57] and we got work as a team to get them

[00:42:59] we don't have individual numbers

[00:43:01] we don't, right?

[00:43:03] we have team numbers

[00:43:05] team objectives, team goals

[00:43:07] now the challenge for us in that situation

[00:43:09] which we're learning this is the first year

[00:43:11] we've kind of structured our teams that way

[00:43:13] the challenge is making sure

[00:43:15] we still have that individual recognition performance

[00:43:17] and that we have that kind of professional metrics to go after

[00:43:19] so

[00:43:21] yes, we know that this team as a whole

[00:43:23] we want to build out this much revenue

[00:43:25] we want to have this kind of level of client retention

[00:43:27] but because it is a team-based activity

[00:43:29] who do you count client retention to?

[00:43:31] right

[00:43:33] well ideally it's the team

[00:43:35] but yet if there are six people in the team

[00:43:37] and they all had a hand in it

[00:43:39] how can you still as an individual

[00:43:41] give them some measurement of how they're doing

[00:43:43] it becomes a little tougher

[00:43:45] but I think it's a worthwhile challenge

[00:43:47] to have that team environment

[00:43:49] I'd rather deal with

[00:43:51] how we figure out

[00:43:53] individual performance and let that be a challenge for us

[00:43:55] as opposed to saying

[00:43:57] well we need to do away with teams

[00:43:59] let's go back to individuals because that was a lot easier

[00:44:01] to measure individual performance

[00:44:03] well and I think that

[00:44:05] that's where we can start talking about

[00:44:07] the downsides of having a team

[00:44:09] as well, right?

[00:44:11] as you said you could put this team together

[00:44:13] and determine how each one of them is performing

[00:44:15] individually

[00:44:17] then there's a really good opportunity for people

[00:44:19] to slack off and let someone else carry the weight

[00:44:21] right that's one of the big negatives

[00:44:23] of team

[00:44:25] and a lot of times it really comes down to the number of teams

[00:44:27] so how many people would be in your team?

[00:44:29] maybe like five or six people

[00:44:31] because that's the idea

[00:44:33] if you make the teams too big

[00:44:35] all of a sudden you get what we call

[00:44:37] social loafing

[00:44:39] social what?

[00:44:41] loafing

[00:44:43] so the more often times you get

[00:44:45] multiple people together

[00:44:47] it's the

[00:44:49] the story that goes along

[00:44:51] with the people

[00:44:53] that are looking out of a building window

[00:44:55] when someone's getting mugged

[00:44:57] in the street and they all look down

[00:44:59] and see that everybody else is seeing it as well

[00:45:01] so nobody calls the cops

[00:45:03] it's the idea of saying oh well somebody else

[00:45:05] got that covered

[00:45:07] it's the idea of

[00:45:09] I can say the classic example

[00:45:11] is if we're doing

[00:45:13] a tug of war

[00:45:15] Alan can pull

[00:45:17] 250 pounds

[00:45:19] dad can pull 250 pounds

[00:45:21] and I can

[00:45:23] pull 50

[00:45:25] but if you add those together

[00:45:27] ideally let's say if we all can pull 250 pounds

[00:45:29] then ideally we should be able to pull 750 together

[00:45:31] but unfortunately you put us on a rope

[00:45:33] and most likely we're going to pull

[00:45:35] less than 250 because we're assuming

[00:45:37] everybody else is helping out

[00:45:39] everybody else is doing some things

[00:45:41] so all of a sudden you get a large team

[00:45:43] and the more people you have

[00:45:45] the less effort each one puts into that

[00:45:47] that's why football teams don't practice

[00:45:49] as a whole they practice as often as

[00:45:51] blind as wide receivers

[00:45:53] so on so they want the social

[00:45:55] benefit but they also don't want

[00:45:57] the loafing that goes along with

[00:45:59] well everybody else is doing the effort and I don't need to

[00:46:01] well I tell you I'm going to take a quick break

[00:46:03] when I come back I want us to dig a little deeper into

[00:46:05] some of the downside of having teams

[00:46:07] and some other things to keep in mind with that

[00:46:09] and then I want us to finish up the conversation

[00:46:11] if we can with some kind of do's and don'ts

[00:46:13] when you're assembling your team, when you're working

[00:46:15] with your team what are some things you really

[00:46:17] absolutely have to do, what are some things

[00:46:19] you need to make sure you avoid as well

[00:46:21] so when we come back from the break let's talk about those

[00:46:23] two topics if that sounds good to you guys

[00:46:25] we're going to take a quick break

[00:46:27] we'll be back in just a moment with leadership GPS

[00:46:29] talking about teams, are they important

[00:46:31] are they needed and some of the differences

[00:46:33] between the corporate world and the athletic world

[00:46:36] here on TheMesh.tv we'll be back in just a moment

[00:46:42] we'll get back to your show in a moment

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[00:47:07] back to your show

[00:47:10] Hello and welcome back to leadership GPS

[00:47:12] here on TheMesh.tv

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[00:47:16] again if you like the kind of conversation

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[00:47:20] I do encourage you to go back and listen to

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[00:48:14] leisure on any device you choose

[00:48:16] let's get back into our topic here guys

[00:48:18] we're talking about this idea of teamwork

[00:48:20] we've got Brian Jackson with us

[00:48:22] my brother dad's son

[00:48:24] from Oregon visiting with us

[00:48:26] and director of tennis

[00:48:28] of kinesiology

[00:48:30] and gosh what's the other term you use there

[00:48:32] performance man

[00:48:34] performance psychology

[00:48:36] motor behavior

[00:48:38] at a pacific university out in Oregon

[00:48:40] joining us in this conversation talking about teams

[00:48:42] what are they

[00:48:44] how to make them work right

[00:48:46] what are the differences between the sports environment

[00:48:48] and the business world and what can we learn from one another

[00:48:50] in that situation

[00:48:52] we talked a lot about some of the reasons to have a team

[00:48:54] we talked about what teams are

[00:48:56] the pros and positives you get from a team environment

[00:48:58] or a team culture

[00:49:00] but we started to talk a little bit before the break

[00:49:02] about what were some of the downsides

[00:49:04] maybe what could be the problems with a team environment

[00:49:06] and Brian I'm really just curious

[00:49:08] in your world

[00:49:10] what are some of the detriments of having

[00:49:12] a team culture you know when you especially

[00:49:14] when you've got strong individual

[00:49:16] performing athletes

[00:49:18] what are some of the downsides of a team

[00:49:20] what could come out of that that maybe is not

[00:49:22] the desired effect

[00:49:24] you know when we started to talk about before the break

[00:49:26] was the idea that

[00:49:28] typically the

[00:49:30] larger the group the less people give

[00:49:32] within that group and then it's

[00:49:34] you've got to kind of weigh the idea of

[00:49:36] if I have this group together they're going

[00:49:38] to learn from each other there's going to benefit

[00:49:40] from each other potentially going to raise

[00:49:42] each other's game

[00:49:44] but there's also a possibility

[00:49:46] that they're going to stop giving

[00:49:48] the max effort because everybody else is there

[00:49:50] and coming up with ways in which

[00:49:52] they all can see their individual

[00:49:54] contribution if you don't have that often

[00:49:56] times you've got people that will slack off

[00:49:58] you've got people that will

[00:50:00] go to practice and therefore realize well I

[00:50:02] don't have to give everything because

[00:50:04] there's plenty of people here to take the time

[00:50:06] they're the ones who turn around and all of a sudden

[00:50:08] they're wandering and doing other things

[00:50:10] because you're not

[00:50:12] they're not as accountable they're not getting

[00:50:14] your most attention it's kind of like what we ran

[00:50:16] through a lot of times with department meetings

[00:50:18] of employees or team meetings the larger

[00:50:20] you got 40 people seeing a room

[00:50:22] there's going to be those on the front rows

[00:50:24] and those talkers and everybody else

[00:50:26] is sitting there saying well I'm sure they'll talk about it

[00:50:28] yeah they already talked about that

[00:50:30] but if it's five people or six people or seven people

[00:50:32] the obligation is more

[00:50:34] on me it's kind of like in college

[00:50:36] when you've got a large lecture hall class

[00:50:38] versus a really small class

[00:50:40] you can kind of hide in the back of the class

[00:50:42] and you figure well I can talk to some of my

[00:50:44] fellow students and make sure I know

[00:50:46] what I need to know for the test but you're not getting your full

[00:50:48] impact out of it small group it's a little

[00:50:50] hard to be invisible

[00:50:52] from that side well and obviously the

[00:50:54] balance there is in a business

[00:50:56] you obviously don't want to

[00:50:58] take those 40

[00:51:00] 50 individuals and then say well let's just break them

[00:51:02] up into meetings of four people at peace because now

[00:51:04] you've got ten meetings so you've got to do the balance

[00:51:06] of what's the size to where I can keep

[00:51:08] their attention but yet also

[00:51:10] be efficient in my time right and not

[00:51:12] spend in my entire time breaking things up

[00:51:14] I think it's a rule to remember about if you're

[00:51:16] wanting to forge strong

[00:51:18] teamwork keep it as small as possible

[00:51:20] is small the better

[00:51:22] I mean you know they're going to

[00:51:24] a meeting with you Alan as a

[00:51:26] you know as a president of a company

[00:51:28] if someone comes and meet with you they're going to be

[00:51:30] much more on task and accountable

[00:51:32] because there's nowhere to hide

[00:51:34] you know it's basically this is all

[00:51:36] my attention and I know everything that comes out of

[00:51:38] this meeting is based on me as opposed

[00:51:40] to a meeting with

[00:51:42] ten individuals that's why you know every year

[00:51:44] I will not I won't just have

[00:51:46] team meetings you that's a nightmare

[00:51:48] you'll end up losing the accountability

[00:51:50] you have to have individual meetings you still have to meet with them

[00:51:52] you have to make sure that you're

[00:51:54] giving them face time and assuring

[00:51:56] them that yes I see what you're doing

[00:51:58] good and bad

[00:52:00] and I want to make sure that

[00:52:02] you know that you know we're accountable here

[00:52:04] and the things you've done that everyone well here's how

[00:52:06] here's how it's benefited us

[00:52:08] so can we actually see that as a little bit of

[00:52:10] I mean I want to say it's not a negative it's just

[00:52:12] something that leaders need to keep in mind is extra

[00:52:14] work in that completely you've got

[00:52:16] two levels of accountability

[00:52:18] you've got to manage you've got to manage the team environment

[00:52:20] and you still have to keep a level

[00:52:22] management on individual

[00:52:24] right because if you don't if you just say

[00:52:26] well I'm just going to coach the team

[00:52:28] and let them go do their thing you're

[00:52:30] going to trip up somewhere on the individual side

[00:52:32] yep you're going to lose some that are not

[00:52:34] as motivated and

[00:52:36] and as

[00:52:38] ideal as it would be to say that all of my

[00:52:40] team is motivated individually to be the best they

[00:52:42] can be that's not the case and that will never

[00:52:44] be the case some of them have different

[00:52:46] goals and aspirations and others so

[00:52:48] so I'd say that's a negative

[00:52:50] you know the size he gets too big but then

[00:52:52] the flip side you're going to have to

[00:52:54] spend more time I'd also say

[00:52:56] we talked about it before

[00:52:58] a team environment means all of us

[00:53:00] the benefit is that they gain from each other

[00:53:02] the downside means they could gain from each other

[00:53:04] in a negative way

[00:53:06] that's true but people in a team

[00:53:08] you've got one bad seed

[00:53:10] or you've got somebody in there that's expressing

[00:53:12] a attribute

[00:53:14] that you really don't want to have shared well you're forcing

[00:53:16] these people to be in a team it's going to

[00:53:18] be a lot easier to spread that negative attribute

[00:53:20] a little bit more. Dad, what about from your standpoint

[00:53:22] anything you see where teams kind of backfire

[00:53:24] or could be problems for individuals

[00:53:26] working in? Well I think

[00:53:28] probably just an elaboration of what Brian identified

[00:53:30] where a team

[00:53:32] actually becomes a negative team

[00:53:34] you know and it's because

[00:53:36] of lack of direction lack of

[00:53:38] clarity of goals by the leader

[00:53:40] they're kind of left to their own devices

[00:53:42] I remember back

[00:53:44] and I probably used this example a long time ago

[00:53:46] in one of our other podcasts which I'm sure everybody out there

[00:53:48] in Listenerland has listened to

[00:53:50] but when I worked in

[00:53:52] a cotton mill when I was in college

[00:53:54] and worked every weekend in holidays and that sort of stuff

[00:53:56] and boys I did that back then to support you guys

[00:53:58] remember that. Yeah, for you

[00:54:00] Is that the one you walked up with both ways to get there?

[00:54:02] Yeah, that's right

[00:54:04] I see you see my hair is lint

[00:54:06] it's not

[00:54:08] but we had

[00:54:10] people who

[00:54:12] really

[00:54:14] to say that they were

[00:54:16] a team was probably inappropriate

[00:54:18] and to say

[00:54:20] that they were individual high performers was not

[00:54:22] but people wanted to be

[00:54:24] more of their colleagues

[00:54:26] more associated with their colleagues and they did

[00:54:28] with expectations of leadership

[00:54:30] the manager. We could have cared less

[00:54:32] what Robert Reynolds the supervisor wanted us to do

[00:54:34] on that third shift running

[00:54:36] a machine called Mangler

[00:54:38] and to meet his goals for us

[00:54:40] what motivated us

[00:54:42] and made us more

[00:54:44] feel a part of something

[00:54:46] was when Shorty and the other six guys

[00:54:48] had been there 40 years running those same machines

[00:54:50] would walk across the aisle

[00:54:52] and talk to Dolan and me

[00:54:54] you know and we became

[00:54:56] part of that group. We could care less what the

[00:54:58] supervisor thought of us so sometimes it's a matter

[00:55:00] of what the nature of the existing group

[00:55:02] is that people would be a part of

[00:55:04] if it's a negative culture and it happens in health

[00:55:06] care, it happens in other areas

[00:55:08] each department has its own subculture

[00:55:10] or on some team if you would

[00:55:12] team effect. If that happens to be negative

[00:55:14] people want to be a part of more that even if it

[00:55:16] is negative so it's a powerful motivator

[00:55:18] to be a part of a group of people

[00:55:20] is a very powerful motivator

[00:55:22] secondary question is

[00:55:24] is that a positive group or negative group?

[00:55:26] So that's a potential downfall

[00:55:28] and I've got a question too that probably

[00:55:30] relates a little more to the sports world than it does

[00:55:32] the corporate world but

[00:55:34] you've got your superstar performers

[00:55:36] your guys who are coming into a team and they are

[00:55:38] lighting it up

[00:55:40] on their own individual stats

[00:55:42] they come from I'll say in a high school

[00:55:44] where they were number one in their

[00:55:46] whole state for example

[00:55:48] come to a school to play

[00:55:50] college university to play

[00:55:52] and to work in a team

[00:55:54] sometimes that's going to hamper

[00:55:56] their own individual performance

[00:55:58] they're not going to put up the same individual stats they add

[00:56:00] because now the expectation is they play in a team

[00:56:02] oh maybe it's like a Johnny Maynzel type of thing

[00:56:04] on a higher level

[00:56:06] a little bit like that, you've got a little bit of that as individual performance situations

[00:56:08] you know I even think about it

[00:56:10] in terms of Miami Heat

[00:56:12] you know you packed in just the superstars

[00:56:14] and you know it didn't really meet the expectations

[00:56:16] of a lot of the fans because you think well

[00:56:18] I'm just going to throw all these superstars in

[00:56:20] but I think the trade-offs there of them trying to work as a team

[00:56:22] didn't always gel as well

[00:56:24] you had a detriment as well, do you risk losing

[00:56:26] some of your top performers

[00:56:28] or not getting them to join the team in the first place

[00:56:30] because you've relied too heavily

[00:56:32] on a team environment

[00:56:34] in a situation

[00:56:36] I think yes

[00:56:38] you do run the risk of

[00:56:40] keeping everyone down to the

[00:56:42] average level right and if you're

[00:56:44] teaching to the group rather than teaching to the individual

[00:56:46] then they're probably not getting what they need

[00:56:48] but you also

[00:56:50] you run the risk of

[00:56:52] losing motivation

[00:56:54] the thing you bring up which is kind of interesting

[00:56:56] is in a team environment

[00:56:58] usually the best player automatically

[00:57:00] becomes an emerging leader

[00:57:02] even if they don't say a word

[00:57:04] everybody looks at that person as well, they're really good

[00:57:06] so I'm going to follow them

[00:57:08] so to me they're the most important part

[00:57:10] of your group

[00:57:12] when you get that individual in you've got to make sure

[00:57:14] they're exhibiting behaviors that you

[00:57:16] really appreciate

[00:57:18] and value as a coach or as a leader

[00:57:20] and a hotshot sales person

[00:57:22] you've got to realize that

[00:57:24] that person automatically is going to be looked at

[00:57:26] positively and negatively

[00:57:28] everyone's going to be looking to them

[00:57:30] they're going to look at them as that's the goal

[00:57:32] and I want to be like that person or they're going to look at them as

[00:57:34] that person is threatening what I do

[00:57:36] that person took a spot away

[00:57:38] so you've got to make sure that person is

[00:57:40] oftentimes it's giving one for the team

[00:57:42] you need someone in that position

[00:57:44] who's willing to give for the team

[00:57:46] more than any other position

[00:57:48] for somebody with the best numbers on a sheet of paper

[00:57:50] it's going to have to be somebody

[00:57:52] who can also resemble

[00:57:54] the emerging leader

[00:57:56] role that you need that they're naturally

[00:57:58] going to take on

[00:58:00] that brings up another point, you all need an answer from each of you on this

[00:58:02] do you think it's more difficult

[00:58:04] to manage

[00:58:06] or coach a team

[00:58:08] of superstars, all of them superstars

[00:58:10] or a team

[00:58:12] of good players

[00:58:14] I'll say it's definitely easier

[00:58:16] to coach

[00:58:18] to manage a team of good

[00:58:20] solid players

[00:58:22] that work together well

[00:58:24] than it is individual superstars

[00:58:26] you may not get the numbers you want

[00:58:28] the performance the records you want right off the bat

[00:58:30] but I got to imagine the long run

[00:58:32] you're going to be better suited for it

[00:58:34] it's easier and it's more enjoyable

[00:58:36] so you can have, even though the objective as a team

[00:58:38] is to push each other to higher levels of contributions

[00:58:40] there's a saturation

[00:58:42] point where everybody can

[00:58:44] get the numbers

[00:58:46] well even in a corporate world

[00:58:48] and I know the superstar thing doesn't apply as much

[00:58:50] in a corporate world as it does athletics

[00:58:52] but let's say you bring on a really high level

[00:58:54] top notch performing sales person

[00:58:56] in a role

[00:58:58] they're a superstar, they are heads and shoulders

[00:59:00] above anybody else you've got in an organization

[00:59:02] if you get fortunate enough for that person to also be a good team player

[00:59:04] then you're solid

[00:59:06] I mean you're good, they're going to elevate everybody else

[00:59:08] however if they're

[00:59:10] focused on

[00:59:12] going to work the process with the rest of the team

[00:59:14] as I should, I'm not going to involve everybody else

[00:59:16] those are the ones that are probably more likely to leave

[00:59:18] quicker too

[00:59:20] in other words I found another opportunity

[00:59:22] where I can make even more money

[00:59:24] so I'm ready to jump ship and go

[00:59:26] and then for a company or business that actually puts you

[00:59:28] in a worse situation than you were beforehand

[00:59:30] not only did you bank on a superstar

[00:59:32] that superstar is now left

[00:59:34] because they weren't part of that team

[00:59:36] so I actually see two real things with that

[00:59:38] so I'd rather go with somebody

[00:59:40] that maybe doesn't have the top performing numbers

[00:59:42] but you've got a sense that that person

[00:59:44] is going to be that right emerging

[00:59:46] leader within that team

[00:59:48] to set the right tone and work with the rest of the team

[00:59:50] I can say my best teams have been the ones

[00:59:52] where I don't think we had

[00:59:54] the standouts, we had

[00:59:56] the solid middle players

[00:59:58] and they all were pushing each other to be better

[01:00:00] because they all wanted to be the standout

[01:00:02] and that's always exciting too

[01:00:04] when you've got people at the same level that are all

[01:00:06] wanting to be potentially the standout

[01:00:08] because at the same time they're happy

[01:00:10] working with each other versus the person who is

[01:00:12] the standout knows it

[01:00:14] it's obvious and then it's really

[01:00:16] hard to keep the others motivated

[01:00:18] to stay in line with that

[01:00:20] So it sounds like we're saying that having a team

[01:00:22] in most situations is a good objective

[01:00:24] to shoot for

[01:00:26] that a team motivates itself

[01:00:28] they push each other

[01:00:30] through that social affiliation

[01:00:32] and modeling to higher

[01:00:34] levels of contribution on an individual

[01:00:36] team rise

[01:00:38] but there can be

[01:00:40] disadvantages of trying to

[01:00:42] force a team into the wrong

[01:00:44] mode

[01:00:46] or the wrong mode of distinction

[01:00:48] It's understanding that there's a lot more leadership

[01:00:50] involvement in managing a team

[01:00:52] than just having a bunch of talented individuals

[01:00:54] The effects

[01:00:56] sound like in the long term are much

[01:00:58] greater and much more positive

[01:01:00] but it is a lot more work as well

[01:01:02] That brings up a point

[01:01:04] A lot of times Brian you know that

[01:01:06] I brought into healthcare environments

[01:01:08] to do leadership

[01:01:10] coaching people say and I always tell them

[01:01:12] I'm not a coach, coaches are there

[01:01:14] every day watching the plays evolve

[01:01:16] watching the performance come out, watching the contributions

[01:01:18] step in it's just like pulling

[01:01:20] the wider receiver around a bad route

[01:01:22] over the sidelines and say no

[01:01:24] you do it this way on the spot

[01:01:26] rather than the day labor like us

[01:01:28] that comes in as consultants once in a while to do something

[01:01:30] So we're more leadership consultants

[01:01:32] but I made a note up here

[01:01:34] that the manager equals coach

[01:01:36] a lot of times in a healthcare environment

[01:01:38] we always think of

[01:01:40] coaches in healthcare and business

[01:01:42] environments as people

[01:01:44] who are one up leaders above

[01:01:46] a work group, the coaches

[01:01:48] and the coach above them is a person above them

[01:01:50] that type of thing

[01:01:52] So to me the question is do you coach a team

[01:01:54] or do you coach individuals

[01:01:56] in the tennis world and sports world

[01:01:58] do you coach a team or do you coach individuals

[01:02:00] it's a good question

[01:02:02] I mean I think you

[01:02:04] have to do both

[01:02:06] if you do one or the other

[01:02:08] I think you're going to fail

[01:02:10] if you just say I'm going to go into my tennis team

[01:02:12] and I'm going to coach these individuals

[01:02:14] and have individual lessons and workouts

[01:02:16] I think you're going to fail in the long run

[01:02:18] with the motivation that goes

[01:02:20] to working with each other

[01:02:22] I mean I think they see

[01:02:24] their own purpose but they don't see the greater good

[01:02:26] and if you just go in and say

[01:02:28] I'm going to work as a team then you run the risk

[01:02:30] of the really good player

[01:02:32] falling back to the pack

[01:02:34] and the lowest level player

[01:02:36] not being able to pull up

[01:02:38] you end up seeing a lot of

[01:02:40] reverting to the mean which is not always

[01:02:42] what you want you want everybody striving to be

[01:02:44] that high level player

[01:02:46] We call that in the other world leveling down

[01:02:48] Superstar up here

[01:02:50] if there's not the rewards, recognition

[01:02:52] and things coming their way

[01:02:54] for being that good

[01:02:56] performance system and healthcare

[01:02:58] management or whatever

[01:03:00] if everybody gets paid the same

[01:03:02] they just get across the board raises

[01:03:04] no differentiation

[01:03:06] what good does it do me

[01:03:08] I just drop my level down to what everybody else is doing

[01:03:10] same thing happens in sports

[01:03:12] there's got to be a combination of the two

[01:03:14] you need that individual

[01:03:16] striving for something

[01:03:18] to differentiate them

[01:03:20] but for me it's a position on the team

[01:03:22] it's a record

[01:03:24] that there is something greater than

[01:03:26] just that rewards for myself

[01:03:28] and there's something more to

[01:03:30] be gotten there

[01:03:32] that's why I think it comes back to

[01:03:34] one of the most important tools

[01:03:36] that a sports psychologist has when they go

[01:03:38] and talk to coaches or to players

[01:03:40] it's always the idea of setting goals

[01:03:42] so those goals have to be set

[01:03:44] accordingly you can't just go to say

[01:03:46] your goal as a team we have to win the championship

[01:03:48] well if you do that nobody knows

[01:03:50] what it is that they're supposed to do

[01:03:52] and they also don't know what they're supposed to do tomorrow

[01:03:54] if you're staying the first day of practice

[01:03:56] we're going to win the championship that's our goal

[01:03:58] well what do we do tomorrow

[01:04:00] I don't understand what we do tomorrow

[01:04:02] but I think especially for your 7, 8, 9, 10 player

[01:04:04] they're saying what do I do about that

[01:04:06] what's my job

[01:04:08] none of mine counts

[01:04:10] so those short term small goals

[01:04:12] individual goals that then contribute

[01:04:14] so the idea would be

[01:04:16] well I want to win the championship

[01:04:18] let's break it down to now Alan

[01:04:20] your goal is this

[01:04:22] within that and if you do that

[01:04:24] you're going to help to the piece of the pie

[01:04:26] everybody plays their part we as a team

[01:04:28] hit the overall goal that we're looking for

[01:04:30] key question again for you guys

[01:04:32] once a team always a team

[01:04:34] no not necessarily

[01:04:36] I mean I think

[01:04:38] for the duration of that objective

[01:04:40] that goal whatever it may be

[01:04:42] you've got a team environment

[01:04:44] but I don't think it has to be an expectation

[01:04:46] that that team always has to be together

[01:04:48] once objectives are met

[01:04:50] once you've built a group of people

[01:04:52] into a team is it fair to assume

[01:04:54] they're always going to be a team

[01:04:56] I think it still has to be managed on a regular basis

[01:04:58] there has to be work along the way

[01:05:00] the idea

[01:05:02] well take

[01:05:04] professional sport teams

[01:05:06] in a lot of times they don't change

[01:05:08] members that often

[01:05:10] not as often as a college team

[01:05:12] gets new people every year but

[01:05:14] they go through ebbs and flows

[01:05:16] and you'll find out that this person is upset

[01:05:18] about their contract and needs

[01:05:20] a little bit more recognition whereas last year

[01:05:22] they were totally fine with where they were

[01:05:24] I think you have to continue to nurture

[01:05:26] that's why it has to be coaching rather than simply

[01:05:28] just coming in and fixing your dreams

[01:05:30] you know where people leaving a team

[01:05:32] that forces the rest of the team to have to even strengthen

[01:05:34] what they're doing as a team

[01:05:36] it's got to be a constant management of that

[01:05:38] some of the organizational behavior theory

[01:05:40] says that teams

[01:05:42] evolve from an immature

[01:05:44] group of people to a synergistic team

[01:05:46] kind of diagonal line

[01:05:48] across two axes

[01:05:50] one of which is communications and the other work

[01:05:52] work processes

[01:05:54] how we do what we do and how we interact

[01:05:56] with each other

[01:05:58] when those melt together and you have the same group of people

[01:06:00] and the same objectives

[01:06:02] the same lack of threats or whatever

[01:06:04] the same access to resources all those things that could play into

[01:06:06] falling back from a team

[01:06:08] then eventually it can only be just an effective

[01:06:10] team, it can be a synergistic team

[01:06:12] or two plus two you could call it five

[01:06:14] or more

[01:06:16] but as you were saying Alan

[01:06:18] every time there's a change in the membership of that team

[01:06:20] you start back to the immature group

[01:06:22] because you have to rebuild it

[01:06:24] add players or you take away players

[01:06:26] add employees, you take away employees

[01:06:28] you got the wrong mix

[01:06:30] the teams that

[01:06:32] lose their quarterback to an injury type of thing

[01:06:34] or you graduate your players

[01:06:36] every year you've got to rebuild a team

[01:06:38] starting from scratch don't you

[01:06:40] that's why you even look at like a college basketball

[01:06:42] program like Kentucky

[01:06:44] where it's just we're going to stock up

[01:06:46] with these high school grads

[01:06:48] that are we know we're only going to be here for a year

[01:06:50] maybe two

[01:06:52] they're the superstars, we're going to recruit them

[01:06:54] we're going to get them here, we know they're only going to be around a short period of time

[01:06:56] so where a lot of college teams

[01:06:58] granted over the years it's gotten a shorter and shorter window

[01:07:00] used to be you coached a team and you kind of knew

[01:07:02] you had those players for three or four years

[01:07:04] when you're now shortening it down to one

[01:07:06] or two years you've got to really maximize

[01:07:08] your efforts in making that team work for one year

[01:07:10] knowing the next season you're going to have to rebuild

[01:07:12] from scratch almost constantly

[01:07:14] that's got to be an incredible

[01:07:16] challenge I think in the college level

[01:07:18] because you are dealing with a time limit

[01:07:20] it's not like pros where they could be there 10, 12 years

[01:07:22] even high school too same idea

[01:07:24] there's a time limit to how long you have those people

[01:07:26] and the workforce

[01:07:28] in the corporate world

[01:07:30] the challenge we have is people can leave

[01:07:32] to go to other jobs people could

[01:07:34] find a better opportunity

[01:07:36] to have them rebuild that team again because of that missing piece

[01:07:38] or different personnel involved

[01:07:40] or worse they mentally leave the job

[01:07:42] physically still here

[01:07:44] so basically they're here but yet you're not hitting

[01:07:46] those same goals you're in

[01:07:48] well that's where coaches probably the same

[01:07:50] as managers and as directors

[01:07:52] it's a non-stop

[01:07:54] it's a non-stop deal

[01:07:56] the coaches that

[01:07:58] know they need to get out of the coaching world

[01:08:00] are the ones that feel like well I've created it

[01:08:02] and now it's going to run itself

[01:08:04] and if you think that's the case

[01:08:06] then it's like running a race up the hill

[01:08:08] once a team, once a team is not

[01:08:10] you can't stand still on the hill

[01:08:12] if you stop moving, if you stop being nimble

[01:08:14] if you stop trying to reinvent the wheel

[01:08:16] now I will say on the flip side

[01:08:18] if you do a couple of things the right way

[01:08:20] get the right people in

[01:08:22] some of it does take care of itself

[01:08:24] and what you want is you want to be pulling the strings

[01:08:26] from behind the scenes to where they feel as though

[01:08:28] it all kind of worked out for them

[01:08:30] and they all tend to

[01:08:32] feel like they're driving for themselves

[01:08:34] just to wrap up our conversation

[01:08:36] I want to get some quick hit from you guys

[01:08:38] some kind of do's and don'ts

[01:08:40] a lot of them are going to be probably

[01:08:42] recapping what we already talked about in our conversation

[01:08:44] but if I were to ask you guys

[01:08:46] what are some of the top most important things

[01:08:48] to remember that you always need to do

[01:08:50] in managing and keeping a strong team

[01:08:52] and then we're also going to counter

[01:08:54] what are some of the things to make sure you don't do

[01:08:56] with regards to a team

[01:08:58] it could be some recapping of what you guys

[01:09:00] have talked about or it could be some new things all together

[01:09:02] who wants to start off, who's got a good

[01:09:04] do something that really needs to be done

[01:09:06] of course me, you know me

[01:09:08] I got your bullet in the head

[01:09:10] I'll just do one, I'll do one

[01:09:12] we're going to start

[01:09:14] these are all so good

[01:09:16] you're trying to pick your favorite one

[01:09:18] what are the best ones, they're all just equal level

[01:09:20] they're all superstars

[01:09:22] well one thing we did say

[01:09:24] you send a better chance of building a team

[01:09:26] when you keep it small, small focused

[01:09:28] what are teams?

[01:09:30] well not only in terms of members of the team

[01:09:32] as long as it's efficient to do that

[01:09:34] but also

[01:09:36] small and focus, keep people on narrow

[01:09:38] focus, this is what we're after

[01:09:40] that heal right now

[01:09:42] that game, the next game is the most important

[01:09:44] you've always heard that in football

[01:09:46] anything else, I would like to look at the championship

[01:09:48] look at the next game, well bull feathers

[01:09:50] that's not always true but it sounds good

[01:09:52] and it probably works, our focus is

[01:09:54] short term and narrow

[01:09:56] so we can measure our performance

[01:09:58] against that

[01:10:00] Brian, take it on, keep it small

[01:10:02] I'm just really happy I heard bull feathers

[01:10:04] this is a PG show, we keep it pretty low key

[01:10:06] and you are my sons

[01:10:08] so I can't be doing the other words

[01:10:12] well using a

[01:10:14] sports term I'd say

[01:10:16] make sure you spend a lot of time

[01:10:18] effective time recruiting

[01:10:20] and recruiting the right people

[01:10:22] for me recruiting the right people doesn't just mean looking at the hot shots

[01:10:24] that's always the way

[01:10:26] first I recruit initially

[01:10:28] I go to see who has the highest ranking

[01:10:30] who is the best player

[01:10:32] but the most important thing

[01:10:34] that I find is getting the current

[01:10:36] people of that team involved in making sure

[01:10:38] there is a connection there

[01:10:40] so for me my step is always

[01:10:42] go out and find the best talent bring them on campus

[01:10:44] and if they don't get along

[01:10:46] with everyone else, if they don't fit into that mold

[01:10:48] see you later

[01:10:50] they are not someone you want because

[01:10:52] you want to make your team conform to someone else

[01:10:54] you want to have them

[01:10:56] if your team is going the right direction, you want the right personalities

[01:10:58] and I would imagine Brian this is actually a question

[01:11:00] I was going to ask earlier

[01:11:02] I would imagine having a strong team

[01:11:04] that is visible

[01:11:06] that somebody new or recruit that you are talking to

[01:11:08] comes and visits and sees that team environment

[01:11:10] it's a better recruiting tool

[01:11:12] than seeing a bunch of

[01:11:14] individuals that are on their own tracks

[01:11:16] incredibly

[01:11:18] and that's typically what I get

[01:11:20] is I will get someone that

[01:11:22] comes and stays overnight

[01:11:24] and does their campus visit

[01:11:26] and usually if I am going to get them

[01:11:28] they are going to tell me the guys are just great

[01:11:30] the team was great

[01:11:32] I just really enjoy it

[01:11:34] they don't even talk about Tenet

[01:11:36] certainly they don't talk about me

[01:11:38] it's usually in spite of me

[01:11:40] but they won't say oh my gosh

[01:11:42] I'm really challenged by the team

[01:11:44] on the court

[01:11:46] I think I can be number one

[01:11:48] if they just says that

[01:11:50] then that's not the person I want

[01:11:52] they say I love the team

[01:11:54] I thought it was really cool

[01:11:56] and great to be around

[01:11:58] as long as I knew that also

[01:12:00] the players came to me and said this person is going to make us better

[01:12:02] and that's what I look for

[01:12:04] getting feedback from the other team members

[01:12:06] and I will take that over

[01:12:08] anything else

[01:12:10] so I would say in the business world

[01:12:12] get the team members involved

[01:12:14] and new people coming in

[01:12:16] and make sure that personality

[01:12:18] is something that is really high on the list

[01:12:20] if everything is working right

[01:12:22] your co-workers, your team members

[01:12:24] should be able to give you the same feedback

[01:12:26] when a new recruits look at

[01:12:28] or a new hire say

[01:12:30] that person will fit here really well

[01:12:32] and the only time that's different is when you are trying to improve what you do

[01:12:34] as a group

[01:12:36] which I assume is always the case

[01:12:38] he's not always trying to fit them into a group

[01:12:40] if the group is not quite where you want it to be

[01:12:42] be very careful about getting someone who is

[01:12:44] currently have whether it's

[01:12:46] motivation or whatever

[01:12:48] because that will cause the bad apple

[01:12:50] and that type of phenomenon

[01:12:52] and it's probably a crude example

[01:12:54] but when you are looking at a work group

[01:12:56] or a team

[01:12:58] if they are all superstars

[01:13:00] and you reward the superstar

[01:13:02] of the superstars

[01:13:04] find no problem, everybody is going to reward

[01:13:06] but what if everybody is

[01:13:08] the norm is sub-par

[01:13:10] nobody is really good

[01:13:12] and you still have to reward individual effort

[01:13:14] then you are probably rewarding the cream of the crap

[01:13:16] rather than cream of the crotch

[01:13:18] rewarding mediocrity

[01:13:20] not an enjoyable list

[01:13:22] alright it's my time right?

[01:13:24] so we've had keep it small, sharp focus

[01:13:26] we've had hire for fit

[01:13:28] or permit for fit bring them in

[01:13:30] next one for me is

[01:13:32] keep the expectations clear

[01:13:34] that's the job of the coach or the manager

[01:13:36] is keep expectations about being a team player

[01:13:38] I think it's all good

[01:13:40] but you have to fully expect and demand that people be a team player

[01:13:42] but people have to translate that

[01:13:44] what does that mean?

[01:13:46] what does it mean like you said

[01:13:48] tomorrow for me? what's my contribution?

[01:13:50] well it just says an example of that

[01:13:52] because you guys talked about a movie that I have not seen yet

[01:13:54] so I'm going to talk about a movie

[01:13:56] I know you guys have seen just because I saw it recently

[01:13:58] with my kids and

[01:14:00] to me it's still one of the best examples

[01:14:02] of a coach forcing

[01:14:04] teamwork in a way

[01:14:06] without it being that we have to be friends

[01:14:08] it's forcing that respect level

[01:14:10] and knowing that kind of setting the expectations

[01:14:12] of this is how we're going to be as a team

[01:14:14] so you're talking about Rudolph the Red Nose reindeer

[01:14:16] I am, absolutely

[01:14:18] perfect

[01:14:20] remember the Titans football film

[01:14:22] where the integration of predominantly black

[01:14:24] predominantly white high schools

[01:14:26] and coming together to play

[01:14:28] they had to get these guys respecting one another

[01:14:30] the coach never once said I want you guys to be friends

[01:14:32] he made opposite players

[01:14:34] room together

[01:14:36] I want you to learn about them and report back to me

[01:14:38] something about their life

[01:14:40] again he wasn't saying go out and hang out

[01:14:42] befriend and go to the mall shop together

[01:14:44] whatever it was know about them

[01:14:46] and report back to me that's the expectation

[01:14:48] but he was creating a team structure

[01:14:50] where teamwork could evolve out of this

[01:14:52] and it wasn't forcing them to be friends

[01:14:54] it was forcing them to respect one another

[01:14:56] and learn about each other

[01:14:58] and that was the expectation is that you're going to learn about them

[01:15:00] and he knew that there was a good chance

[01:15:02] that many of them would start to bond

[01:15:04] a little bit stronger because of that

[01:15:06] so it's that expectation

[01:15:08] this is what we'll be expecting as a team

[01:15:10] it's not being unrealistic and not saying

[01:15:12] you got to be friends and go out and hang out all the time

[01:15:14] it's here's how we're going to be

[01:15:16] as a team this is the expectation I've got

[01:15:18] well it's also respecting differences between people

[01:15:20] respecting their contribution

[01:15:22] level no matter what level it is that type of thing

[01:15:24] Brian you got another one for us

[01:15:26] well it was just, we mentioned it a little bit earlier

[01:15:28] but I wanted to reiterate

[01:15:30] you need to make sure that there are

[01:15:32] group goals and individual goals

[01:15:34] together and ways

[01:15:36] of separating yourself individually

[01:15:38] or I should say rewarding yourself individually

[01:15:40] being accountable individually

[01:15:42] while having a balance of making sure that you're

[01:15:44] working to see what the team does

[01:15:46] that person who creates

[01:15:48] the highest sales

[01:15:50] result of the quarter

[01:15:52] also needs to see whether or not that sales

[01:15:54] goal helped anyone else

[01:15:56] and if they can't see that well

[01:15:58] I just hit

[01:16:00] and these people are all about 25%

[01:16:02] if he or she

[01:16:04] would have done a different

[01:16:06] way of approaching that to where

[01:16:08] you brought everybody else up then that's

[01:16:10] a more positive way of going about it

[01:16:12] so you got to make sure there's ways

[01:16:14] of seeing what you do

[01:16:16] and how that can be rewarded individually

[01:16:18] versus also seeing

[01:16:20] what I do individually can actually help

[01:16:22] a greater good and you need to be able

[01:16:24] to draw connections

[01:16:26] just kind of managing both levels of that

[01:16:28] and then you can't have one or the other

[01:16:30] I would imagine the corporate world

[01:16:32] you cannot have just one or the other

[01:16:34] if you just manage a team

[01:16:36] individually you're going to lose some people

[01:16:38] you're going to lose some motivation on the individual side

[01:16:40] if you just manage individuals

[01:16:42] then as a team they're not working together

[01:16:44] and you're fragmented as well

[01:16:46] because that also blends together the reward

[01:16:48] and recognition concept

[01:16:50] individual reward and recognition

[01:16:52] and I see no problem doing that in front of team members

[01:16:54] recognizing individual team members

[01:16:56] or having stats and metrics that would do that

[01:16:58] but you also have to have goals

[01:17:00] and objectives that are clear for the team

[01:17:02] and when we do our parts well

[01:17:04] this is what we can get to

[01:17:06] and you celebrate those things

[01:17:08] I don't know if you guys have any other

[01:17:10] do's to list but let's just kind of go through

[01:17:12] and hit some of those a little bit more

[01:17:14] really quickly two other things

[01:17:16] okay three things

[01:17:18] one of which it's a constant building process

[01:17:20] once a team always a team is not a truism

[01:17:22] you know we got to always stay on top of it

[01:17:24] different pressures on the team

[01:17:26] changes in membership of the team

[01:17:28] different resources to train the team

[01:17:30] what it might be

[01:17:32] if you're short staffed in a department

[01:17:34] for too long your teamwork drops

[01:17:36] when the short run it surges

[01:17:38] we're going to make up for each other

[01:17:40] snow days outside

[01:17:42] they can't get in here that's fine

[01:17:44] no problem we'll carry the ball

[01:17:46] but let it snow for 15 days in a row

[01:17:48] the team starts to frighten you

[01:17:50] the other thing that I had

[01:17:52] the constant building process was that

[01:17:54] you have to

[01:17:56] as a coach or manager

[01:17:58] that's a point I think a manager is a coach

[01:18:00] and a coach is a manager

[01:18:02] you have to manage teamwork

[01:18:04] but you also have to coach it

[01:18:06] you know manages creating that structure

[01:18:08] that framework like we're talking about

[01:18:10] the Titans and so on and so forth

[01:18:12] the coaching is individual

[01:18:14] as well as team painting the picture

[01:18:16] where we can be where we ought to be

[01:18:18] where you can be

[01:18:20] aggressive of that non

[01:18:22] that certainty of the non team player

[01:18:24] when you're sure

[01:18:26] that guy, that gal is not on board

[01:18:28] and never going to be

[01:18:30] it's their choice

[01:18:32] you got to deal aggressive with that

[01:18:34] rather than having to taint the team

[01:18:36] so that's what I bring up

[01:18:38] Ryan do you have any other ideas for you?

[01:18:40] we've got them all covered

[01:18:42] we've covered a lot throughout the conversation

[01:18:44] is there anything you guys can think of

[01:18:46] that we need to express to make sure you don't do

[01:18:48] we've already talked about a lot of those things

[01:18:50] but just any closing notes on

[01:18:52] things when managing a team that you need to make sure

[01:18:54] you don't do and you avoid if at all possible

[01:18:56] I can't think of the don'ts

[01:18:58] I would encourage every person

[01:19:00] who's in a leadership position

[01:19:02] to be critically mindful

[01:19:04] of the benefits of creating a team

[01:19:06] mm-hmm

[01:19:08] in any role and that's something

[01:19:10] you have to keep being mindful about

[01:19:12] it's not something that comes naturally

[01:19:14] usually we're just satisfied with everybody

[01:19:16] doing a new job, okay fine, end of the day everybody's gone

[01:19:18] show up tomorrow good

[01:19:20] you got a good team? oh yeah

[01:19:22] or is it just a group of good employees

[01:19:24] teamwork is special

[01:19:26] team ship is a special

[01:19:28] attribute of a group of people

[01:19:30] the one thing I'll say on the don't side of things

[01:19:32] is don't assume as a leader

[01:19:34] that just because you set up your team

[01:19:36] that it kind of hands off for you

[01:19:38] all of a sudden that your job is done

[01:19:40] kind of that constant management you said

[01:19:42] but also even that mentality of

[01:19:44] if they've got the team they're going to do their stuff

[01:19:46] they've got their goals

[01:19:48] I'm just going to sit back and watch it happen

[01:19:50] and if it doesn't happen then I'll figure out something

[01:19:52] no, it's a constant process

[01:19:54] and that's something that I know is tough

[01:19:56] with time requirements and everything else

[01:19:58] in a lot of busy organizations but

[01:20:00] you build a team it does add more complexity

[01:20:02] to your role as a leader

[01:20:04] but you've got to look at it as

[01:20:06] this will be something that will benefit our organization

[01:20:08] much much better

[01:20:10] if I put the time into building the team

[01:20:12] that's one thing

[01:20:14] and I would just say on the don't

[01:20:16] one of the key elements with a coach is that

[01:20:18] don't say things that you're not going to back up

[01:20:20] and if you do really believe

[01:20:22] say in my position

[01:20:24] if I really do believe that

[01:20:26] effort is something that I care about

[01:20:28] and being a great team member

[01:20:30] something I care about well I need to reward that

[01:20:32] I can't go to someone and say

[01:20:34] gosh I really love the way you've been working

[01:20:36] but I'm still going to keep that lazy person

[01:20:38] who's the better player in the lineup

[01:20:40] messages yeah you can't give the mixed messages

[01:20:42] because that will come back and buy to you

[01:20:44] and the whole team environment will fall apart

[01:20:46] so you know set up your culture

[01:20:48] the way that you want it and stick with the culture

[01:20:50] and sometimes that means potentially

[01:20:52] less productivity in the

[01:20:54] short term a greater productivity

[01:20:56] in the long term well I think that's a challenge

[01:20:58] for a lot of leaders too as you realize

[01:21:00] and sometimes when you build a team

[01:21:02] you're not going to get those results you won't immediately

[01:21:04] if you're building a really good team it will take a while

[01:21:06] and I think there's sometimes a lot of impatience

[01:21:08] out there people won't the superstars

[01:21:10] quickly they want to build a rock star

[01:21:12] team of just high performers without necessarily

[01:21:14] building it into a team culture

[01:21:16] you may get some very flash in the pan

[01:21:18] quick results but you're not going to get the longevity

[01:21:20] you need on it so

[01:21:22] guys thanks so much for the conversation today

[01:21:24] I thought this was great and Brian appreciate you

[01:21:26] flying all the way from Oregon just to come record

[01:21:28] this show this is really impressive

[01:21:30] the dedication I'm telling

[01:21:32] you as an individual I appreciate your

[01:21:34] performance coming here to North Carolina

[01:21:36] and your performance on today's podcast

[01:21:38] dad individually you did great

[01:21:40] on today's podcast as well I really appreciate

[01:21:42] your performance yeah today I mean and in general

[01:21:44] as well okay I think it's on brawl

[01:21:46] as a team we were a good team

[01:21:48] we were a good team for the last hour

[01:21:50] good and do well this has been

[01:21:52] leadership GPS this is again

[01:21:54] our ongoing podcast audio discussion

[01:21:56] about the world of leadership and how

[01:21:58] you can affect change in your organization

[01:22:00] as a leader or if you're looking to

[01:22:02] evolve from a supervisor

[01:22:04] or employee manager role into

[01:22:06] a stronger leader for the organization you belong

[01:22:08] to I'm Alan Jackson with the Jackson

[01:22:10] Group Tony Jackson with drive leadership

[01:22:12] you can learn more about drive leadership at

[01:22:14] driveleadership.com or just go to the Jackson

[01:22:16] Group and ask about it there we have

[01:22:18] information on both websites there

[01:22:20] I'm at the Jackson Group which is the

[01:22:22] Jackson Group.com about employee

[01:22:24] and customer satisfaction surveys

[01:22:26] and experience surveys and then our

[01:22:28] guest Dr. Brian Jackson from

[01:22:30] Pacific University out in Forest Grove

[01:22:32] Oregon thanks for being here

[01:22:34] feeling good about your season coming up

[01:22:36] I guess you got both seasons both men

[01:22:38] and women seasons coming up. Moving

[01:22:40] in the right direction

[01:22:42] it's always good to see. Might want to give

[01:22:44] your email address in case any of our

[01:22:46] listeners out there want to dialogue with you

[01:22:48] about email about any of your points today

[01:22:50] what is that? Well my email address is

[01:22:52] Brian Jackson

[01:22:54] at pacificu.com

[01:22:56] or edu sorry

[01:22:58] pacificu.edu

[01:23:00] for university.edu

[01:23:02] great we'll make sure we put that in

[01:23:04] the description notes on the show episode as well

[01:23:06] for that so. Thanks guys.

[01:23:08] B-R-A-N right not B-R-Y-A-N

[01:23:10] or not B-A-B-R-A-N

[01:23:12] it's somebody called you in time

[01:23:14] Brian Jackson. Well you still with an eye?

[01:23:16] Oh shoot

[01:23:18] about 40 some years now

[01:23:20] Thank you guys, thank you. Thank you Brian

[01:23:22] and Alan Sun. Yeah thanks everybody for listening

[01:23:24] we'll talk to you next time. Take care.

[01:23:26] Bye bye. You've been listening to The Mesh

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