Reducing Waste and Helping the Environment with Bob Carswell, The Material Return

[00:00:02] [SPEAKER_00]: What you want, when you want it, where you want it. This is The MESH.

[00:00:12] [SPEAKER_03]: Welcome to the Entrepreneur Exchange on The MESH Podcast Network, a monthly conversation about startups and small business with ideas,

[00:00:21] [SPEAKER_03]: tools, and advice to operate your business more effectively. On today's show,

[00:00:27] [SPEAKER_03]: what if you had a business that reduced waste and helped the environment?

[00:00:30] [SPEAKER_03]: The material return in Morganton, North Carolina is working to create a circular textile economy,

[00:00:38] [SPEAKER_03]: taking back textile waste and turning it into new products. Bob Carswell with The Material Return will join us as our guest.

[00:00:44] [SPEAKER_03]: Also on today's show, the always exciting lightning round and we'll also share some interesting small businesses that you should be checking out.

[00:00:53] [SPEAKER_03]: My name is Jeff Neuville. I'm your co-host, director of the Manufacturing Solutions Center in Conover, North Carolina.

[00:00:58] [SPEAKER_03]: I'm joined by my co-host, Gary Muller, who is executive dean of economic development and corporate education at Catawba Valley Community College in

[00:01:06] [SPEAKER_03]: Hickory, North Carolina. Gary, how you doing today? I'm doing great.

[00:01:11] [SPEAKER_01]: It's hot out there though, but I guess there's maybe our last bit of

[00:01:17] [SPEAKER_01]: really hot weather, you think?

[00:01:20] [SPEAKER_03]: I'm thinking we might, you know, we're talking here in late August, right before Labor Day.

[00:01:24] [SPEAKER_03]: I think, you know, who knows what September might bring, you know, these days, who knows what early October might bring? You never know.

[00:01:30] [SPEAKER_03]: That's true. That's true. Hopefully we can avoid some of these 95 degree days. Well, that's true. How do you feel about football season starting?

[00:01:39] [SPEAKER_03]: My Carolina Tar Heels squeaked one out over the University of Minnesota last night, so I'm happy.

[00:01:44] [SPEAKER_03]: A win's a win and it was a way, right? It was. I'm hoping they can get us to basketball season. There you go. I understand.

[00:01:50] [SPEAKER_01]: That's my philosophy and this is Wake Forest playing football this year. We are playing this year, at least part of the year.

[00:01:57] [SPEAKER_01]: We played last night and we won. Oh good. A&T. Oh good.

[00:02:02] [SPEAKER_01]: We've got Virginia and then Ole Miss who's I think number six in the country the next two weeks.

[00:02:07] [SPEAKER_01]: Well, you also have a good coach. We do have a very good coach.

[00:02:10] [SPEAKER_01]: We wish you well. I think the league's better than we are.

[00:02:13] [SPEAKER_03]: Well, I don't think our listeners tuned in for ACC football update. So let's welcome our guest.

[00:02:20] [SPEAKER_03]: Bob Clarswell. Bob, how are you doing? I'm doing great. How about y'all? Doing good.

[00:02:26] [SPEAKER_03]: We appreciate you joining us and Bob is the director of research and development for the material return in Morganton, North Carolina.

[00:02:34] [SPEAKER_03]: He's got experience in electrical engineering, computer engineering and who knows what else and

[00:02:41] [SPEAKER_03]: he is working to create a circular textile economy trying to keep our clothes and textile products out of

[00:02:48] [SPEAKER_03]: landfills. Bob, we appreciate you joining us today. Yeah, I appreciate you all having me.

[00:02:54] [SPEAKER_05]: You definitely have real good connections in the industry. So I was like I better be on this guy's podcast.

[00:03:01] [SPEAKER_03]: People are just clamoring to be with us, Bob.

[00:03:05] [SPEAKER_03]: We're beating them off with a stick so we appreciate you doing with it.

[00:03:09] [SPEAKER_03]: So the material return, it's a unique business. Tell our listeners sort of what the material return is doing.

[00:03:18] [SPEAKER_05]: Yeah, I think it's the easiest tagline. I don't know if it's on our website. If it is, I probably need to update it but

[00:03:24] [SPEAKER_05]: we are into custom circularity for textile waste. So you know working with brands and both

[00:03:31] [SPEAKER_05]: manufacturers we try to transform their waste back into new raw materials for their supply

[00:03:37] [SPEAKER_05]: chain and that can be fiber fill, that can be non-wovens, but our main focus is really turning

[00:03:42] [SPEAKER_05]: it back into that one-to-one, turn it back into yarn. There's already a whole budding industry

[00:03:48] [SPEAKER_05]: of non-wovens. I don't need to get into that. We need to transform more back into something that

[00:03:52] [SPEAKER_05]: can go right back on the factory for where it came from. So we work with both post-industrial

[00:03:57] [SPEAKER_05]: and post-consumer waste and that can be peril textiles for furniture, hosiery,

[00:04:03] [SPEAKER_05]: anything you can think of on that kind of front and transform it into yarn.

[00:04:10] [SPEAKER_03]: So I know a little bit about this. I think you know a lot more but there's an awful lot of textile waste, apparel, whatnot,

[00:04:19] [SPEAKER_03]: that ends up getting thrown away and clogging up landfills and just bad use of

[00:04:27] [SPEAKER_03]: how these products are made. And also I think we recognize that there's just often

[00:04:33] [SPEAKER_03]: because of the supply chain issues, too much of it gets made and there's an excess glut that has to be

[00:04:39] [SPEAKER_03]: gotten rid of as well. So is that something that you guys are focused on or as you do your work?

[00:04:47] [SPEAKER_05]: That is 100%. Yeah, I think we usually cite information off of the Ellen MacArthur Foundation

[00:04:54] [SPEAKER_05]: website. They do a lot of research in circularity. I think it's like every American throws away

[00:04:59] [SPEAKER_05]: 75 pounds of clothes a year or something like that and well over. Yeah, well I mean it's before

[00:05:07] [SPEAKER_05]: us there's really nothing else besides Goodwill but you know Goodwill, you can't return socks

[00:05:13] [SPEAKER_05]: for resale. You can't return underwear if your clothes are too far gone especially like

[00:05:18] [SPEAKER_05]: post-industrial waste. I mean we're in the Carolinas. Somebody's making furniture or

[00:05:23] [SPEAKER_05]: apparel or hosiery here and there's going to be a byproduct coming from that so you got to

[00:05:28] [SPEAKER_05]: figure out something to do with it. But I think that was the main focus and if I mean I could go

[00:05:35] [SPEAKER_05]: ahead and start on a little bit of the backstory if you want to. Yeah, how did material return

[00:05:40] [SPEAKER_05]: come to be and how did you get involved with it? That's 100%. I'll tell you just a little

[00:05:44] [SPEAKER_05]: bit. I mean from I am I don't know how old I am 38. I think 38. You're a youngster.

[00:05:50] [SPEAKER_05]: We had you pegged at 36. You look really young. Hey! That's the first. Everybody thinks I'm 40 something.

[00:05:55] [SPEAKER_05]: Man, this industry. No, so I went straight from high school into a furniture factory to work as a

[00:06:08] [SPEAKER_05]: upholstery fabric cutter. So I would do the cutting. We had a lot of patterns. We had flow

[00:06:12] [SPEAKER_05]: matching on the front of the sofa. It was really high in furniture and I noticed that

[00:06:16] [SPEAKER_05]: that factory I worked there for 15 years. I noticed at that factory there was really nobody

[00:06:20] [SPEAKER_05]: that would take any textile waste from us. So we were you know putting that in the landfill

[00:06:25] [SPEAKER_05]: and about like I said after I'd started there and worked for 15 years, Molly and Sarah just

[00:06:30] [SPEAKER_05]: randomly found me through Western Piedmont where I taught some engineering classes.

[00:06:35] [SPEAKER_05]: They found me working in a factory with like a tie-dye shirt and long hair and they're like

[00:06:41] [SPEAKER_05]: this guy seems like he knows what he's doing. So I did a little bit of work with

[00:06:44] [SPEAKER_05]: them kind of join the the industrial commons board and Molly Hemstreet and Sarah Chester

[00:06:49] [SPEAKER_05]: started the industrial commons and they're like which you know a lot about you know especially

[00:06:54] [SPEAKER_05]: furniture textiles. What do you all do with that textile waste? And Molly was having the

[00:06:59] [SPEAKER_05]: same issue at her factory called Opportunity Threads, which is cutting so it's very difficult

[00:07:05] [SPEAKER_05]: to get anything recycled. You had a mixed bag of all types of different fibers and colors

[00:07:09] [SPEAKER_05]: coming through there and they just weren't ideal for the market that's there for kind of

[00:07:19] [SPEAKER_05]: Dan St. Louis, former director of MFC and Molly Hemstreet and then Gaston Textile Technology

[00:07:27] [SPEAKER_05]: Center NC State School for Textiles and just did an audit to figure out what kind of waste was

[00:07:31] [SPEAKER_05]: out there and how much was going into the landfill and I don't want to say the numbers

[00:07:35] [SPEAKER_05]: but it was uh it's just it's impossible to get a lot of different things recycled

[00:07:39] [SPEAKER_05]: through in the domestically. You know you can go into the downcycled but not upcycled

[00:07:46] [SPEAKER_05]: and downcycling most of it was going to an automotive installation. You know the non-woven

[00:07:50] [SPEAKER_05]: door panel pads appliances and things like that but we really wanted to create you know something

[00:07:57] [SPEAKER_05]: that would actually go back into the same product that you know originally you don't want

[00:08:02] [SPEAKER_05]: to downgrade those fibers because some of them are really high quality like the cottons and the

[00:08:07] [SPEAKER_05]: wools and polyesters and things like that so we started out by doing an audit doing a lot

[00:08:11] [SPEAKER_05]: of research to figure out how to set up more or less we were kind of a glorified textile trash

[00:08:17] [SPEAKER_05]: service for a long time. For a good two years we would pick up all the textile waste from every

[00:08:22] [SPEAKER_05]: factory we talked to and aggregate that and put it down in downcycling for non-wovens but

[00:08:29] [SPEAKER_05]: we kind of worked with Industrial Commons and they helped us get a few grants to secure some

[00:08:34] [SPEAKER_05]: carting equipment and then worked with a couple of spinning partners to start spinning yarn and

[00:08:38] [SPEAKER_03]: we're kind of off to the track off to the races now so. So you know the challenges of creating

[00:08:49] [SPEAKER_03]: circularity in textiles you I know one of the big things is is sorting just because when you

[00:08:55] [SPEAKER_03]: get textile waste it might be cotton or it might be some sort of polyester it can be all

[00:09:02] [SPEAKER_03]: sorts of things I mean what what what are the sort of challenges that you run into as

[00:09:08] [SPEAKER_03]: you're trying to sort through sort through no no pun intended the the various waste that you get

[00:09:15] [SPEAKER_03]: and just just the overall issue of circularity because I have to also think that

[00:09:22] [SPEAKER_03]: from a if I'm a manufacturer of certain products and you're telling me oh no we're

[00:09:27] [SPEAKER_03]: going to reuse some of this stuff or or whatnot there are certain manufacturers that

[00:09:31] [SPEAKER_03]: might not be so supportive of circularities is for for their own economic reasons.

[00:09:38] [SPEAKER_05]: Yeah 100% the I think sorting is one of the most difficult parts and it's mainly the most

[00:09:44] [SPEAKER_05]: difficult part for post consumer so stuff coming back from you know from thrift stores like like

[00:09:50] [SPEAKER_05]: the Goodwills and stuff like that in America means that is a mixed bag of every fiber type

[00:09:55] [SPEAKER_05]: and color non-demand. You know post industrial side you've got usually you know you've got

[00:10:00] [SPEAKER_05]: a weaving machine this machine runs a lot of polyester or you've got a knit you know hosiery

[00:10:04] [SPEAKER_05]: machine was going to be a lot of knowledge so in post industrial it's not as difficult still not

[00:10:09] [SPEAKER_05]: perfect but on the post consumer side that's why we have kind of a volume limit on folks

[00:10:15] [SPEAKER_05]: we work with because it's it's as depending on what it is and how hard it is to deconstruct

[00:10:20] [SPEAKER_05]: as well with buttons and zippers and and packaging sometimes with retail returns it

[00:10:26] [SPEAKER_05]: can get to where I don't have enough manual labor to do that but you know with this whole

[00:10:31] [SPEAKER_05]: engine work that we're doing with y'all and the TTC and NC State that's kind of one of the main

[00:10:38] [SPEAKER_05]: focus points because that's going to be the bottleneck you know the textile equipment

[00:10:41] [SPEAKER_05]: that's all that's all not easy to get but it's all you know much simpler to set up that

[00:10:49] [SPEAKER_05]: kind of infrastructure for textile production here in the Carolinas but that's sorting we

[00:10:53] [SPEAKER_05]: got to have it but right now that's we're dealing with it with manual labor and very

[00:10:59] [SPEAKER_05]: fast processing as fast as you can go and simple simple kind of minimum viable product so if I know

[00:11:05] [SPEAKER_05]: these socks all have smart roll written on them they got wool in them so they're going in one bin

[00:11:10] [SPEAKER_05]: and everything else if it's Nike or whatever whoever it is they're going to the different

[00:11:14] [SPEAKER_03]: bins you know well so you so you you mentioned smart wall and I know that that's

[00:11:21] [SPEAKER_03]: been a pretty successful and I guess a model program of what you're what you're trying to

[00:11:27] [SPEAKER_03]: can you talk a little bit about the the work that you're doing with the the smart wool sock brand

[00:11:34] [SPEAKER_05]: absolutely so I think this was another one of those connections with Dan St. Louis he's

[00:11:39] [SPEAKER_05]: known the smart wool folks and Rodney has as well for years and they were looking there

[00:11:46] [SPEAKER_05]: there I guess it was vice president at the time Anne Weipers she actually you know had

[00:11:52] [SPEAKER_05]: this vision early early before we even started talking with them she threw some smart wool socks

[00:11:57] [SPEAKER_05]: into a cuisine art blender or grinder I guess food processor grounded up and then realized I

[00:12:03] [SPEAKER_05]: was like oh this is still really a decent fiber for spinning so she had this vision

[00:12:08] [SPEAKER_05]: and then Dan St. Louis connected the smart wool team with us and and we kind of just made

[00:12:14] [SPEAKER_05]: that scaled up a little bit we just got a big cuisine art or some partners with that but

[00:12:19] [SPEAKER_05]: we we launched in 2020 with a second cut project and the second project was a kind of a two or three

[00:12:26] [SPEAKER_05]: stages at first it was how to work out the logistics of getting

[00:12:31] [SPEAKER_05]: post-consumer socks back to North Carolina to be broken down and respawn knowing that

[00:12:38] [SPEAKER_05]: we didn't have that development done yet but smart was like one of those perfect partners they

[00:12:43] [SPEAKER_05]: you know they make really high quality durable products made in the U.S.

[00:12:48] [SPEAKER_05]: They have a tight supply chain with good you know really good allies in the industry

[00:12:51] [SPEAKER_05]: and they've stuck through with us for since the start when we didn't know how to make this yarn

[00:12:57] [SPEAKER_05]: made from socks and they have a team with really good knowledge and textile circularity

[00:13:04] [SPEAKER_05]: now especially but that even before that they had a really good team but

[00:13:08] [SPEAKER_05]: we started out with this take back program I think we collected around

[00:13:12] [SPEAKER_05]: a million pairs of socks the first year on the launch and these are these are coming back from

[00:13:19] [SPEAKER_03]: consumers that have bought socks and and have a process for shipping them mailing them back to

[00:13:26] [SPEAKER_05]: you is that how it works yes absolutely so smart will set up the entire process for getting it

[00:13:31] [SPEAKER_05]: to our doc so as these socks come in you can you could do it direct to consumer online so

[00:13:37] [SPEAKER_05]: if you order a pair of socks you get a free prepaid bag it comes to your house you fill

[00:13:41] [SPEAKER_05]: with socks and this is any brand of socks it does not have to be smart will so it's anything

[00:13:46] [SPEAKER_05]: so we get all types of different socks that are coming in and these are probably worn and nasty

[00:13:53] [SPEAKER_05]: they can be you know the directions of smart well I told them is they'd be really nice if

[00:13:57] [SPEAKER_03]: these socks were washed yeah you know Gary you know Gary's got some some foot issues that

[00:14:03] [SPEAKER_03]: we won't get into my wife would be very happy yeah yeah give her a bag and she'll get rid

[00:14:07] [SPEAKER_03]: of all your socks you have to mention your underwear but go ahead Bob yeah so so yeah we

[00:14:12] [SPEAKER_05]: got those post consumers and there's some good instructions with a little QR code on the bag

[00:14:16] [SPEAKER_05]: it tells you say hey these you know just wash these before you send them back to material

[00:14:19] [SPEAKER_05]: return we've got some process in between that you know definitely sterilizes everything but

[00:14:25] [SPEAKER_05]: you know it does smell like a foot sometimes in the plant if we get a it's not it's not as

[00:14:31] [SPEAKER_05]: you think um and then they also did like a retail drop spot too so if you go into reis

[00:14:37] [SPEAKER_05]: and other outdoor retail stores there would be a bin set up with the smart will logo and

[00:14:41] [SPEAKER_05]: the instructions and we get gosh 60,000 pounds coming from retail stores where people were

[00:14:48] [SPEAKER_05]: actually like participating in this program which I think that was the biggest learning

[00:14:52] [SPEAKER_05]: for like smart well and us is like people want to do this they don't want to throw their

[00:14:56] [SPEAKER_05]: trash you know that's why goodwill you know has had millions of pounds or clothes kept out of

[00:15:02] [SPEAKER_05]: landfill because they people don't want to throw this away so we did that and then in that first

[00:15:08] [SPEAKER_05]: and during the pandemic it was crazy they were like let's make a product right now just

[00:15:13] [SPEAKER_05]: to announce this so we kind of worked with them and a bunch of the carolina textile district

[00:15:18] [SPEAKER_05]: partners to make a dog bed filled with these sock fibers that were coming back in from

[00:15:23] [SPEAKER_05]: consumers so within six months I think we turned around made you know made a good

[00:15:29] [SPEAKER_05]: a small sample supply of those and they sold them on the website within six months during

[00:15:33] [SPEAKER_05]: the pandemic it was stressful as heck but we got we got it done and that kind of proved

[00:15:38] [SPEAKER_05]: the point that you know a national take back project could work on post-consumer materials

[00:15:43] [SPEAKER_05]: so and now we're making a lot of yarn it took a lot of development probably about three

[00:15:48] [SPEAKER_05]: years or good you know optimization work and but we've got a lot of different yarns in

[00:15:53] [SPEAKER_05]: there products going out to you know even to wholesale to retail stores now so so you

[00:16:00] [SPEAKER_03]: you're actually I think you know you're with with the help of some of your partners you are

[00:16:06] [SPEAKER_03]: you're actually making some products and and selling them on your website or are they for

[00:16:11] [SPEAKER_05]: sale usually we're kind of b2b more so we we ship out the yarns to uh to you know the

[00:16:18] [SPEAKER_05]: the sock knitters that smart will has or we've even had work in the furniture industry making

[00:16:22] [SPEAKER_05]: fabrics we've had work with some knitters some circular knitters to make fabrics as well

[00:16:27] [SPEAKER_05]: and working with almost any fiber type but usually we're mostly b2b but you know I wouldn't

[00:16:32] [SPEAKER_05]: mind being able to to sell a few things direct on the website but um we're only like seven guys

[00:16:37] [SPEAKER_05]: on a on a plant floor so there's I don't know if I can learn how to run a knitter

[00:16:42] [SPEAKER_03]: I've seen some some beanies I've seen some socks out there that I know come

[00:16:47] [SPEAKER_05]: are made with your yarn yes yes we usually try to make those we

[00:16:51] [SPEAKER_05]: we do get some funding

[00:16:55] [SPEAKER_03]: yours are toxic we're not using okay we'll figure it out sure

[00:16:59] [SPEAKER_03]: there's a different there's a different box for those garrison yeah those are the ones we burn

[00:17:04] [SPEAKER_05]: for fuel no but uh yeah we've made some small sample runs you know just to prove the point

[00:17:12] [SPEAKER_05]: have stuff on hand to show people it's like hey this actually works because you know there

[00:17:15] [SPEAKER_05]: when we first started in 2019 there was a lot of doubt in the industry with manufacturers and

[00:17:21] [SPEAKER_05]: everything that you can make a recycled yarn that you know had equivalent specs and performance

[00:17:25] [SPEAKER_05]: to uh you know a virgin component going into it so that's why we got the samples on hand

[00:17:31] [SPEAKER_05]: we don't we're not trying to sell socks we're trying to trying to make yarn for

[00:17:34] [SPEAKER_03]: people to make whatever product they need to so so at this point in time you

[00:17:41] [SPEAKER_03]: you're basically number one trying to make sure that you've got textile waste coming in the door

[00:17:48] [SPEAKER_03]: and number two you got to find a place to as you're creating yarn or or you know what not

[00:17:55] [SPEAKER_03]: you've got to find a place you have to find a market for that i mean so so are those both

[00:18:01] [SPEAKER_03]: sources of revenue for you and and you know where what are the challenges on on both both

[00:18:07] [SPEAKER_05]: of these production cycles for you yeah i think uh that's a perfect question so the i think one of

[00:18:13] [SPEAKER_05]: the one of the things we realized early on is that we you know starting this recycling kind

[00:18:19] [SPEAKER_05]: of pickup or collection and aggregation sorting service that was going to have to be like a

[00:18:24] [SPEAKER_05]: fee-for-service for us because um without a huge market in the first place to use all these

[00:18:30] [SPEAKER_05]: fibers i mean we we collect and aggregate over close to a million pounds a year in our

[00:18:36] [SPEAKER_05]: facility and we're not making that much yarn yet but and that's mainly because of infrastructure

[00:18:42] [SPEAKER_05]: issues like we get a lot more recycled you know textiles than we could make yarn for right

[00:18:51] [SPEAKER_05]: now but that's that's something you know you have to build out the infrastructure and that's

[00:18:55] [SPEAKER_05]: one of the challenges is there's nobody really really 100 set up for this we're kind of making

[00:19:00] [SPEAKER_05]: do with the textile equipment that's here with partners and things like that but there needs

[00:19:04] [SPEAKER_05]: to be some you know kind of investment in some real infrastructure on that side and then same

[00:19:10] [SPEAKER_05]: thing with the we've got plenty of materials jeff and then we've got post-industrial we've

[00:19:15] [SPEAKER_05]: got post-consumer thousands millions of socks but they have to be sorted you know in that

[00:19:20] [SPEAKER_05]: first place so it's kind of kind of a few bottlenecks but we're working on that but you

[00:19:24] [SPEAKER_05]: know right now we've got i think we've developed probably about 120 different yarns

[00:19:30] [SPEAKER_05]: it can be different fiber blends it can be different counts different you know

[00:19:34] [SPEAKER_05]: twisted non-twisted all those things like that so we've got a lot of products to offer

[00:19:38] [SPEAKER_05]: with the feedstock that we have and there's nothing saying any product that comes in we'll

[00:19:42] [SPEAKER_03]: figure out how to make something out of it so so you're talking about infrastructure

[00:19:48] [SPEAKER_03]: you're talking about bottlenecks you know what you know how how when you look at scaling the

[00:19:55] [SPEAKER_03]: operation you know what what are the steps that are out there in the future that

[00:20:00] [SPEAKER_03]: you need to take it sounds like it's a pretty labor intensive process right now and is you know

[00:20:06] [SPEAKER_03]: i i'm thinking there's probably some equipment that might assist you as you grow so what's your

[00:20:12] [SPEAKER_03]: what's your thoughts on scaling how does one go about scaling this type of operation

[00:20:16] [SPEAKER_05]: yeah so the first first thing i think our aggregation side's pretty well it can handle

[00:20:22] [SPEAKER_05]: what we've got what we've got coming in right now it'll have to scale but on on the actual

[00:20:28] [SPEAKER_05]: fully upcycled yarn production side we've got carting and opening line right now

[00:20:35] [SPEAKER_05]: and i think our next investment 2025 is probably going to be not probably is going to

[00:20:40] [SPEAKER_05]: be some ring spinning for for creating you know a little bit longer staple

[00:20:45] [SPEAKER_05]: yarns out of these recycled fibers that ring spinning will be 2025 and then we'll probably

[00:20:51] [SPEAKER_05]: have to get a lot of testing equipment fiber analysis but the strength testing you know even

[00:20:56] [SPEAKER_05]: as testers anything you can think of to make sure we make a yarn and not give recycled products

[00:21:01] [SPEAKER_05]: a bad name in the u.s so that's that's what we're working on the scale on the kind of

[00:21:07] [SPEAKER_05]: yarn production side made out of recycled fibers and then i'm thinking hopefully the next two

[00:21:11] [SPEAKER_05]: three years we'll have something worked out with either a partner or something with this

[00:21:15] [SPEAKER_05]: kind of engine project to to have some you know automated sorting in the u.s because

[00:21:20] [SPEAKER_05]: that's kind of key you got to make sure your feedstocks a good quality sorted material before

[00:21:25] [SPEAKER_03]: you can make really high quality yarns out of recycled goods now now it seems like

[00:21:33] [SPEAKER_03]: europe is further ahead of us us being the united states in terms of requirements they're

[00:21:40] [SPEAKER_03]: putting on many apparel manufacturers and using recycled materials and documenting it is that

[00:21:47] [SPEAKER_03]: is that sort of pulling you along or or how does that have any effect on you

[00:21:54] [SPEAKER_05]: that's 100 so we actually with this kind of engine group we took a good team that's been

[00:21:59] [SPEAKER_05]: working on circularity for a while over to talk to the the folks in in italy because

[00:22:04] [SPEAKER_05]: they've been they've been recycling since world war one so they've been doing a lot

[00:22:08] [SPEAKER_05]: of wool recycling and they know a lot about the eu policy and usually you know anything

[00:22:13] [SPEAKER_05]: that happens in the eu will transfer over to california first and then spread across the

[00:22:17] [SPEAKER_05]: us and i think brands have already kind of seen this coming so they want to get ahead of it and

[00:22:23] [SPEAKER_05]: have their supply chains worked out for how to get their goods recycled and made back into

[00:22:26] [SPEAKER_05]: new products so that is like number one i mean hey i'm pushing for it because we can't

[00:22:31] [SPEAKER_05]: we can't just keep doing lintery manufacturing further forever we got a limited supply of

[00:22:35] [SPEAKER_05]: raw materials and with polymers and and and all these things like this so i'm i'm happy to

[00:22:42] [SPEAKER_05]: join in any conversation about policy and i think the engine's really doing a lot of work

[00:22:46] [SPEAKER_03]: on that as well and and how how is this received by you you talk about brands and i think when we

[00:22:54] [SPEAKER_03]: talk about brands you're talking about major apparel brands maybe retailers i don't know but

[00:23:02] [SPEAKER_03]: that are driving this i mean how do they are they on board are they hesitant uh you know

[00:23:07] [SPEAKER_03]: what's what sort of reception have you gotten from the various brands i think a lot that uh

[00:23:14] [SPEAKER_05]: a lot of brands already have a circularity kind of initiative in process some are further along

[00:23:19] [SPEAKER_05]: than others some are some of it some of the brands we've talked to are at it's at the top

[00:23:23] [SPEAKER_05]: of their list and and one one thing that's really nice you know starting material return

[00:23:28] [SPEAKER_05]: and you know being involved with msc and nc state and all these folks that are really in

[00:23:33] [SPEAKER_05]: this street y'all's word of word of mouth has really put it out there into the world that

[00:23:37] [SPEAKER_05]: i don't even need a marketing budget for people to find us i'm just folks are reaching

[00:23:42] [SPEAKER_05]: out because i mean there's not not a lot in the u.s there's a few other groups that are doing

[00:23:46] [SPEAKER_05]: some stuff like we are but you know here based in carolina's already you know has equipment to

[00:23:51] [SPEAKER_05]: do some processing most of most of the brands we talk to have some type of circularity

[00:23:57] [SPEAKER_05]: initiative though and some don't but they'll have to one day i'm sure well and and and

[00:24:04] [SPEAKER_03]: i guess there's a concept out there called the was it green splaining or or some people might

[00:24:11] [SPEAKER_03]: be exaggerating claims i mean it's great that people have that are involved but probably some

[00:24:17] [SPEAKER_05]: are more involved than others yes yeah there there we've definitely you know we've seen

[00:24:24] [SPEAKER_05]: some greenwashing and we just had a really good panel on um at tech tech still with the shane

[00:24:30] [SPEAKER_05]: o'Toole and uh shan su from cirque and we were talking about that like a lot of brands

[00:24:36] [SPEAKER_05]: you know it's so difficult to for for brands to come out good sometimes on this that greenwashing

[00:24:44] [SPEAKER_05]: you're kind of talking about jeff like if you do anything then somebody points out the thousands

[00:24:49] [SPEAKER_05]: of other mistakes you make um but if we're doing and what we can't get people it's like

[00:24:54] [SPEAKER_05]: if we're doing anything at all it's better than doing nothing and you know even if it is

[00:24:59] [SPEAKER_05]: seems like greenwashing it's like it's still better than just not doing anything at all

[00:25:03] [SPEAKER_05]: so a lot of times you know most of our yarns that we make are usually a blend of recycled

[00:25:09] [SPEAKER_05]: fiber content and try to shoot for 50 percent recycled content and the other 50 some type of

[00:25:15] [SPEAKER_05]: virgin carrier fiber whatever that is cotton poly wool um and you know a lot of some of

[00:25:21] [SPEAKER_05]: the brands you know or or clients we work with hey can't you get to 100 you know recycled

[00:25:27] [SPEAKER_05]: content it's like we can but this is that good product that's going to perform and you

[00:25:32] [SPEAKER_05]: make it in the industry and you know some folks won't work unless it's 100 and it's like that's

[00:25:38] [SPEAKER_05]: just that's just the kind of the the nature of the beast right now it will one day but

[00:25:43] [SPEAKER_05]: right now we've got to get something in the works otherwise it's still going to go in the

[00:25:47] [SPEAKER_03]: landfill right well as we as we sort of wind down as you you sort of been living this for

[00:25:55] [SPEAKER_03]: the last four or five years i mean any you know for folks that might be listening that are

[00:26:01] [SPEAKER_03]: going through the the pains of getting a business operating and and off the ground any

[00:26:08] [SPEAKER_03]: any advice or or lessons that that you can share with them i think um

[00:26:16] [SPEAKER_05]: for the folks trying to start something like this um it's tough it's definitely tough but um

[00:26:23] [SPEAKER_05]: i think it's like man especially as small as the textile and the furniture industry is in

[00:26:27] [SPEAKER_05]: the u.s this kind of domestic we we all have to work together in this and i think we are now

[00:26:34] [SPEAKER_05]: especially with all the the past 10 years with msc and nc state and ttc we're just all working

[00:26:40] [SPEAKER_05]: together you're seeing direct competitors in in the textile business working together now on

[00:26:45] [SPEAKER_05]: projects which which i like to see you know being uh i think carolina textile industry is

[00:26:50] [SPEAKER_05]: like being big by being small together it feels it feels you don't have to put so much

[00:26:55] [SPEAKER_05]: investment into vertically integrating everything if you just work for you know work with these

[00:26:59] [SPEAKER_05]: partners and then for you know for brands and manufacturers trying to work on circularity for

[00:27:04] [SPEAKER_05]: for their um for their brand for their products and things like that

[00:27:10] [SPEAKER_05]: you're really thinking about how like those products are designed like with like in the

[00:27:15] [SPEAKER_05]: end of life in mind like if you design a product from the start with like i don't care

[00:27:19] [SPEAKER_05]: how i don't care what it does at the end you know it's made out of all polymers and

[00:27:24] [SPEAKER_05]: just unrecyclable and it is but a non-biodegradable it's like start thinking with that

[00:27:29] [SPEAKER_05]: design first the design is the most important part because what you're designing now i'm going

[00:27:34] [SPEAKER_05]: to have to deal with it in you know another 10 10 years whenever it comes back and like hey

[00:27:40] [SPEAKER_05]: can't you recycle this like no this wasn't designed in a way that's recyclable with our

[00:27:45] [SPEAKER_03]: our methods you know so i would think also that your business is pretty capital intensive

[00:27:50] [SPEAKER_03]: when you think about the equipment that you need which would pose challenges for for startups i

[00:27:57] [SPEAKER_03]: mean are you i know that you work with the industrial commons and and have successfully secured

[00:28:05] [SPEAKER_03]: grants and whatnot but uh you know it's it's probably an expensive type of business to get

[00:28:09] [SPEAKER_05]: into 100 i think uh you know starting in textiles every there isn't a single piece

[00:28:17] [SPEAKER_05]: process that you know is under a million dollars in in any part of that where that's spinning

[00:28:22] [SPEAKER_05]: carting garneting whatever it is and you know as a small startup and and you know industrial

[00:28:28] [SPEAKER_05]: commons has uh incubated us at the start with the with the end like end goal for material

[00:28:37] [SPEAKER_05]: returned to be employee owned so you know having having a way to to keep that wealth like

[00:28:43] [SPEAKER_05]: rooted locally in our community here so none of us that are are here are going to ever sell

[00:28:49] [SPEAKER_05]: our business because we're part owners of it you know so that that really helps out not having

[00:28:55] [SPEAKER_05]: to worry about retaining you know the people working for you we're all owners we're all like

[00:29:00] [SPEAKER_05]: in this for 100 percent right now so we want to make this work so you've got a good if

[00:29:06] [SPEAKER_05]: you got to have a good team for a startup like this and you got to have good support from

[00:29:10] [SPEAKER_05]: folks at the industrial commons and then plus all the awesome philanthropic and federal

[00:29:16] [SPEAKER_05]: funders that we have we definitely couldn't have done it without it well well we really

[00:29:24] [SPEAKER_03]: appreciate you uh spending some time with us and sharing the material return story because

[00:29:29] [SPEAKER_03]: it's just a pretty neat cooperation really is but you know we also uh you know since

[00:29:34] [SPEAKER_03]: since you're with us bob we'd like to uh we invite you to take part in our lightning

[00:29:39] [SPEAKER_03]: round you up for that let's do it okay well this this month's lightning round is is sponsored by

[00:29:45] [SPEAKER_03]: globo gym do you need to lose some weight and get in shape well go to someone else's gym but

[00:29:50] [SPEAKER_03]: if you already look good come to globo gym you should check them out on the internet

[00:29:54] [SPEAKER_03]: anyway bob we got some quick questions don't overthink it just quick questions quick

[00:29:59] [SPEAKER_03]: answers you ready okay what's your favorite vacation spot oh man there's a really good

[00:30:07] [SPEAKER_05]: spot down in florida called uh anna maria island right on the side of uh tampa bay and the other

[00:30:12] [SPEAKER_05]: sides of gulf it's perfect beautiful there's nothing there it's awesome well you know we're

[00:30:17] [SPEAKER_03]: gonna have a lot of people there now that you've shared on the entrepreneur exchange so uh you

[00:30:22] [SPEAKER_03]: know it's gonna be overrun but anyway next question beetles rolling stones or taylor swift

[00:30:29] [SPEAKER_05]: on your playlist oh man i'm i'm thinking beetles i'm thinking the beetles okay i mean you can't go

[00:30:37] [SPEAKER_03]: wrong with any of them no so anyway uh would people characterize you as sweet salty or sour

[00:30:45] [SPEAKER_03]: probably sour i don't know he seems pretty sweet to me you know anything good guy all right

[00:30:51] [SPEAKER_03]: all right i can fake it pretty well jim is it okay to wear socks with sandals

[00:30:58] [SPEAKER_05]: oh my gosh i never wear sandals so probably not i gotta i gotta wear socks i'm too old i

[00:31:03] [SPEAKER_03]: gotta wear tennis shoes now all right if you're an olympic athlete what sport would you compete

[00:31:10] [SPEAKER_05]: in something where you pick up heavy things and throw them i don't know shot put is that it

[00:31:16] [SPEAKER_03]: shot put yeah i'm good at that all right last question for you if you could have one

[00:31:21] [SPEAKER_05]: superpower what would it be teleportation i never want to drive again

[00:31:29] [SPEAKER_03]: would you prefer teleportation or the ability just to fly

[00:31:34] [SPEAKER_03]: probably teleportation because it takes no time out of it you're there you're not going to

[00:31:37] [SPEAKER_03]: run into anything any that way so that's all good all right well we appreciate it bob if

[00:31:42] [SPEAKER_03]: people uh if our listeners want to find out more about the material return where should

[00:31:46] [SPEAKER_03]: be looking where can they find you and the material returns so our website is the material

[00:31:51] [SPEAKER_05]: return.com so you can visit that it's got a couple good videos a lot of process and how

[00:31:56] [SPEAKER_05]: to get in touch with us and then you know check out the linkedin and the instagram for

[00:32:00] [SPEAKER_05]: material returns well it's always cool little videos of awesome projects we're doing on those

[00:32:05] [SPEAKER_05]: so um and you can reach me i think my email is on the website unfortunately

[00:32:10] [SPEAKER_03]: okay so it's it's the material return.com with the the in front of material returns so

[00:32:16] [SPEAKER_03]: everyone check them out because they're doing some really cool stuff so

[00:32:20] [SPEAKER_03]: we always like to wind up with sharing some small businesses that we've come across

[00:32:27] [SPEAKER_05]: bob you got anything you want to give a shout out to absolutely i think uh the there's

[00:32:32] [SPEAKER_05]: there's a really good partner we've been not partnered they're just awesome little business

[00:32:36] [SPEAKER_05]: in hildebrand called the recycling group and we recycle textiles but there's always by product

[00:32:41] [SPEAKER_05]: that we kind of collect from our clients like uh plastics and cans and cardboard they've just

[00:32:46] [SPEAKER_05]: been with us since the start they've been recycling everything we can't recycle through

[00:32:50] [SPEAKER_03]: our process a good little business okay good for them yeah gary what uh what uh you're going

[00:32:56] [SPEAKER_01]: to give a shout out to today i'm going to give a shout out to a business i haven't been

[00:33:00] [SPEAKER_01]: heard several people bring it up to me that uh they're very it's a family owned business

[00:33:07] [SPEAKER_01]: actually it's not a new business it's from the 1950s it's the knob creek farms and creamery

[00:33:13] [SPEAKER_01]: have you ever heard of them either of you they're on the lincoln and cleveland county

[00:33:19] [SPEAKER_01]: borders and they started as an apple and peach farm and it broadened out over the years it's

[00:33:26] [SPEAKER_01]: many generations uh the crops started way back in 1950s but now the son and grandsons

[00:33:34] [SPEAKER_01]: and their wives are running the business and and of course that when i heard ice cream homemade

[00:33:40] [SPEAKER_01]: ice cream i knew that i needed to bring that up but i heard lots of really good things about

[00:33:44] [SPEAKER_01]: it so if you're traveling in that area it'd be a great place to stop by no i'm pro ice

[00:33:49] [SPEAKER_03]: okay good deal that sounds good uh knob creek farms and creamery right okay

[00:33:57] [SPEAKER_03]: well actually basically the email address okay at gmail uh so anyway we we got a uh email from

[00:34:07] [SPEAKER_03]: one of our listeners with a small business that i will share uh this month this is from

[00:34:14] [SPEAKER_03]: pete in broomfield colorado and i'm reading verbatim from his email right here says i was

[00:34:22] [SPEAKER_03]: listening to your fabulous podcast and your host larry i think i think he means you

[00:34:28] [SPEAKER_03]: he said larry but i think he means gary mentioned new york city's bounty of small

[00:34:33] [SPEAKER_03]: entrepreneurial businesses which you were talking about last time so uh pete uh

[00:34:42] [SPEAKER_03]: economy candy and he says economy candy is new york city's oldest retail candy store located at

[00:34:49] [SPEAKER_03]: 108 rivington street i need that address in the lower east side it was established in 1937

[00:34:56] [SPEAKER_03]: originally started as a shoe and hat repair shop with a candy cart outside during the great

[00:35:02] [SPEAKER_03]: depression the candy cart became more popular than the shoe repair business leading to the

[00:35:07] [SPEAKER_03]: transformation into a full-fledged candy store we call that pivoting in the business don't we

[00:35:12] [SPEAKER_03]: that is well that's pivoting uh the store is now run by the third generation of the cohen family

[00:35:18] [SPEAKER_03]: with mitchell and his wife sky at the helm economy candy offers a wide variety of sweets

[00:35:24] [SPEAKER_03]: including chocolates gummies dried fruits nuts and nostalgia nostalgia candy that are hard to

[00:35:30] [SPEAKER_03]: find elsewhere i'm not sure what nostalgia candy is old old candy and he used to be

[00:35:36] [SPEAKER_03]: cycle note down the shop is known for its extensive selection and charming old school

[00:35:43] [SPEAKER_03]: atmosphere making it a beloved destination for both locals and tourists they also ship

[00:35:49] [SPEAKER_03]: nationwide so uh and you can check them out at economy candy.com so uh we we appreciate pete

[00:35:59] [SPEAKER_03]: from colorado sending that in we're gonna listen to my review of my trip to see my

[00:36:05] [SPEAKER_03]: daughter in new york city well we're gonna have to pull together a prize pack for pete and we

[00:36:11] [SPEAKER_03]: encourage uh listen some old candy and socks okay they better be washed uh so uh if

[00:36:18] [SPEAKER_03]: if you have a suggestion for the entrepreneur exchange small business of the month you can

[00:36:22] [SPEAKER_03]: email them to us at e-exchange at the mesh dot tv and if we use yours we will

[00:36:28] [SPEAKER_03]: pull together one of our prize packs and we promise it's not going to be gary's old

[00:36:31] [SPEAKER_03]: socks we'll make sure that that's not what it's gonna be i'm still wearing them all right

[00:36:35] [SPEAKER_03]: wait till they get big holes gary that's right anyway yeah uh bob we want to thank you

[00:36:40] [SPEAKER_03]: for joining us today uh we really appreciate it and we want to give our thanks to the mesh

[00:36:47] [SPEAKER_03]: podcast network you can check out all the cool podcasts going on at the mesh at the mesh dot

[00:36:54] [SPEAKER_03]: tv online and subscribe to their podcast which you'll find on uh apple podcast spotify

[00:37:00] [SPEAKER_03]: all the usual uh platforms and uh we'll look forward to talking to everybody again next month

[00:37:09] [SPEAKER_01]: take care everybody stay warm or cool depending on what part of the country

[00:37:14] [SPEAKER_01]: thank you all take care good to see you've been listening to the mesh an online media

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